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Current Page: 5 of 8
Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
Date: July 26, 2022 09:56AM

Is not the haul used to increase the flex in the rod, thus increasing the rods potential energy which when released gives the line it's speed?

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: July 26, 2022 12:30PM

Once you have determined the ERN of a fly rod what do you do with this information? Will the ERN help you select an effective fly line, regardless of the line's taper? Will two rods with nearly the same ERN cast the same? What ERN is best for a beginner? I appreciate that determining ERN enables fly casters to compare static features of rods, but what decisions in rod selection does it expedite? If you find an eight foot spinning rod for sale that has the same ERN as a five foot spinning rod you own and like can you be assured you will pleased with the purchase of the eight-footer?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2022 12:53PM by Phil Ewanicki.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: July 26, 2022 12:43PM

Ben: You can utilize the potential energy created and stored in the bend of the rod only by replacing the rod's tip-top with a little cup, into which you place your fly, or lure, or worm. Then hold your rod straight up and down with one hand, bend the rod tip and its cup with its contents W-A-A-A-Y back, let go, and let 'er rip! This is the ONLY way you can use the power of your rod to make long casts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2022 12:55PM by Phil Ewanicki.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: July 26, 2022 01:09PM

Phil, your last post is clearly wrong.

How does knowing the ERN of a fly rod help in decision making? I once broke a fly rod. I knew its ERN and AA, and when I bought a new blank I tested it and found its ERN was very close to that of the first rod. I now knew that lines that cast well with the old rod would cast well with the new one so I went on and built it confident that I knew how it would fish. And iI fished just like I thought it would. Just like a rod with that ERN and AA would be expected to fish. By the way, the broken rod was repaired and I keep it as a spare. Its ERN and AA did not change with the repair, so I was confident it would cast as it had before. And I was right. This added to my confidence in my ability to repair rods successfully.

When buying lines, if my 8 weight has an ERN close to 9, knowing that I have trouble with short casts, I'll buy a 9 weight line. It most likely will work well. (I also have weighed lines, so kowing what actual weight works well for me helps with a buying decision, too.)

What ERN is best for a beginner? The best ERN for a beginner or an expert is the one that best matches what he wants his rod to do. What is the best car for you, Phil? Probably the one that best does what you want it to do. Haul?; Race? Economy over performance? Carry 9 people? Whether you are a beginner driver or a veteran driver has little to do with it. It's about how you want it to function.

ERN and AA are measured statically, but they do predict the dynamic performance of the rod.

Still waiting for the answer to the question, to paraphrase, "Does the length of the rod tell you anything of value?"

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: July 26, 2022 02:06PM

I have found the selection of a fly line for a rod is more important than the ERN of a rod - and I don't know how to select a fly line based upon a rod's ERN. It would be convenient if I could. Is there a chart which reveals which weights and tapers of fly lines go best with which ERN's? Thanks for the tip about replacing broken rods by ERN rather than by brand or by cost.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: July 26, 2022 04:40PM

Nancy Reagan had a saying back in the 80's ............ "just say no"

Seriously ........ try it ............ just say no

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: July 26, 2022 04:58PM

I didn't replace a broken rod by ERN. That doesn't even make sense.

If you have a rod of X ERN, the a fly line rated X will probably work OK. If your rod is stated to be X in power, but is something else as many rods are, then an X fly line might not work well. Knowing the ERN of the rod helps make a fly line purchase more confident. And it helps when trying to find a rod that is the same as your current rod, or finding rods either more or less powerful than your current rod. ERN is like a ruler. By the way, Phil, does knowing the length of a rod provide any value?

If you cast better with heavier lines, and you know your rod is X ERN, then a fly line of X + 1 will probably work.

How do you know that the selection of a fly line for a rod is more important than the ERN if you don't know the ERN? And how do you select a line? Just take a shot in the dark? Or use the rated power of the rod for a starting point? If you have a 3 weight rod do you buy a 6 weight line? Of course not. ERN simplgy gives you an accurate measure of the power of the rod. And makes line selection more likely right.

Phil, do you really not get this stuff? I find that hard to believe.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: July 26, 2022 09:51PM

This rod "power" which gets so much press from advertisers is nonsense and defies the laws of physics. A rod blank has no power, none. It can be bent and then unbend, but a Person has to provide the power to do this. A person provides every bit of power in a cast. The rod does not make or add any energy to a cast, it simply pulls the line back and forth. You can't push on a rope and a rod can't push on a fish line, regardless of the rod's ERN. When I fly-cast I double haul, regardless of my rod's ERN. I quite certain I can cast a fly rod made from a pool stick of any ERN sixty feet, and Lefty could cast a fly line ninety feet with no rod and zero ERN - just his hands. Knowing a blank's static deflection numbers does provide some information about how a rod will bend and PULL a line, but it's entirely the angler's input, not the rod's flexibility, which determines casting distance and accuracy.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: chris c nash (---.atmc.net)
Date: July 27, 2022 11:54AM

I was curious what kind of posts Phil was engaged in back when he first joined , he seems to have become more cynical .


[www.rodbuilding.org]

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Mike Ballard (---.cust.tzulo.com)
Date: July 27, 2022 12:57PM

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This rod "power" which gets so much press from
> advertisers is nonsense and defies the laws of
> physics. A rod blank has no power, none. It can be
> bent and then unbend, but a Person has to provide
> the power to do this. A person provides every bit
> of power in a cast. The rod does not make or add
> any energy to a cast, it simply pulls the line
> back and forth. You can't push on a rope and a rod
> can't push on a fish line, regardless of the rod's
> ERN. When I fly-cast I double haul, regardless of
> my rod's ERN. I quite certain I can cast a fly rod
> made from a pool stick of any ERN sixty feet, and
> Lefty could cast a fly line ninety feet with no
> rod and zero ERN - just his hands. Knowing a
> blank's static deflection numbers does provide
> some information about how a rod will bend and
> PULL a line, but it's entirely the angler's input,
> not the rod's flexibility, which determines
> casting distance and accuracy.


You don't understand what rod Power is. Spend some time in the glossary and bone up on how these terms apply to rods.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
Date: July 27, 2022 01:10PM

But left still fishes with a rod..why are you so down on fishing rods? What did they ever do to you? lol.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: July 27, 2022 01:48PM

Facing reality is not cynical. Selecting a fly rod for its static performance - how far a dead weight bends it - ignores the speed at which the fly caster moves the rod forward [loads the rod] and whether or not the caster has a smooth, well timed stroke or just jerks the rod around. Fly casting is a dynamic [not a static] operation.The chief obstacle to selecting a fly rod by CASTING IT is embarrassment over one's casting abilities. Reading a rod's static properties is no help in selecting a rod or improving one's casting skills. CASTING several fly rods and several fly lines before you are able to fly cast over 30 feet can save you a lot of grief, money and time. Your computer and its ERN will not find the right rod for you - or make you a better caster. Fly casting is a physical, dynamic activity, NOT a static, written, televised, or computerized activity. Physical activities are best learned by doing, not by reading, observing, or advertising. Join (or start) a fly-fishing club!

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: David Baylor (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: July 27, 2022 04:36PM

Deliberately obtuse to elicit a response. That is all this is guys. There have been more than adequate explanations how knowing the ERN can help in the blank selection process. Yet this kind of thing persists.

Just quit playing his game, and hopefully this kind of stuff will fade away.

But I like many of you know ........ it won't go away. It will just get more ridiculous, someone will take the bait, and the vicious cycle will start anew.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: July 27, 2022 04:47PM

Phil, you are defining power as in an auto engine, and you're right in that a rod doesn't have that power.

But for fishing rods, power has a different definition. It is the weight it takes to deflect it, so it is a measure of stiffness. Power is probably the wrong word to use for this rod characteristic.

But I am surprised that you still don't get it after all these years and all these posts. From the glossary : "Power
Generally used to describe a rod or blank's stiffness or resistance to bending."

You cannot argue that a rod has no "resistance to bending." Open your mind and accept that the power we are talking about with blanks and rods is real. It's just not power as normally defined by physics.


There is no reason why static measurements cannot predict dynamic performance.

For example, suppose you have to predict which would be the fastest bullet that could be fired from a rifle, say a 30-06 rifle. You cannot measure it directly, but you can measure static characteristics, like bullet weight, . Would that fastest bullet be a 110 grain bullet or a 220 grain bullet? I maintain that you would be very confident in predicting, based on the static measurement of bullet weight, that the faster (a dynamic characteristic) bullet would be the 110.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: July 27, 2022 06:44PM

The claim that the "power" of a rod is responsible for a cast illustrates the triumph of hope over reality. The only "power" in a cast is generated by the caster, not the rod or the line. The rod, no matter how much you paid for it or how many tests you have performed on it, can only pull the line as fast as you can pull the rod tip. When you release the line in a cast the rod does not push the line - not even a little!
For proof, try waiting for you rod tip to move in front of you [stop "pushing" your line] before you release the line in the cast. Bon Chance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2022 06:46PM by Phil Ewanicki.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: July 27, 2022 07:28PM

I give up.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 27, 2022 07:34PM

No one has ever said that the power of a rod is responsible for the cast. But you will play heck trying to cast 8 ounces on an Ultra-Light rod or a 12-weight line on a rod that can only handle a 4-weight line. Rod power is extremely important and knowing the amount of relative power a rod has is a very valuable tool for the rod builder and fisherman.

.................

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: July 28, 2022 12:57AM

Sure you can, just jerk the rod a little harder..lol.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: July 28, 2022 12:46PM

"Static length measurement" of what? If you refer to length of casts ANY fisherman (including me) is capable of making then Yes, this is valuable information to them - but don't take my word, take a survey.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 28, 2022 12:51PM

Length of the rod - a static measurement.

.........

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Current Page: 5 of 8


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