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Current Page: 4 of 8
Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Leslie Cline (---)
Date: July 22, 2022 11:32AM

I read a quote from Dr. Hanneman's "Big Picture" article that I found interesting:

"While knowing where a rod ends up is important to the consumer, the keen rod maker is more concerned with where the journey began and the route followed to the final destination. In other words, one would like to see the Big Picture."
Dr. H then goes on to outline his DBI process.

I believe this is what Mr. Danek is speaking about - the Big Picture is MORE important to the 'keen rod maker'.

Another little nugget from Dr. H: (Writing about fly rods) "The addition of a stiff butt section always increases both the ERN and AA."

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 22, 2022 11:50AM

I do it with a space between or like this - ERN • AA , so you'd see something like 14.5 • 72. For customers you could write it out like this- [Power 14.5 • Action 72]

..............

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Chris Catignani (---)
Date: July 22, 2022 01:27PM

Up until recently...I never gave much thought to Common Cents.
This was because I never really had a need to cross reference different blanks.

So Im taking another hard look at it and embracing the work.

From the article:
"Its power is determined from the number of one cent pieces added to the bag in order to deflect the tip downward a distance equal to one
third of the rod’s length."


If I have a rod that 7 feet long (84 inches)...(1/3 of that is 28 inches)
I lay it horizontal and start adding pennies into a bag (placed on the tip) until the tip drops 28 inches (below horizontal)?
...and this is the Angle action?

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 22, 2022 01:51PM

No, that's the power measurement. The action measurement is taken in that same position, but the tip is viewed in front of a chart (protractor) and indicates a certain angle. The chart is supplied with the article and can be cut out and pasted behind the rod tip.

..............

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Chris Catignani (---)
Date: July 22, 2022 02:00PM

Thank Tom...but I pooched the question

I will try again...

If I have a rod that 7 feet long (84 inches)...(1/3 of that is 28 inches)
I lay it horizontal and start adding pennies into a bag (placed on the tip) until the tip drops 28 inches (below horizontal)?

Is this the correct procedure...the tip drops 28 inches past horizontal?

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: July 22, 2022 03:53PM

Chris, I'll step in, yes, that is how the power number is measured. As long as you are defining "laying it" as solidly supporting the butt with two supports, one at the butt end and one 10% of the blank's length towards the tip from the first. The axis of the blank should be level. Most important to the power measurent of course, are accurate measurements. If you are doing fly rods or other weaker rods that droop, you have to consider that. See the instructions for the details on that. It would be a good idea to read the whole set of CCS articles linked in the left margin.

Tom, it must have been very interesting and rewarding to personally interact with Dr. Hanneman. Some of your recollections would make a nice article for the magazine.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Chris Catignani (---)
Date: July 22, 2022 04:09PM

Thanks Mick...FWIW....I have read and reread that article many times.
Originally I thought the 1/3 of the blank measurement was to stop when 1/3 of the blank bends...
and was kind of scratching my head on that some...
I will get back with ya on this ...

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 22, 2022 04:12PM

The first 10% is level. Any droop after that is normal and is part of the deflection. So assuming you need to deflect the rod 28 inches, and you already have 1 inch of deflection, you add pennies until you get another 27 inches. This is why a built rod with guides, will show a slightly lower power rating than the naked blank - some of the rod's power is now being used to carry the guides.

Dr. Hanneman and I usually spoke every couple of weeks for several years right up until just before his passing. He had a stroke in his later years and had trouble speaking for awhile but his mind remained sharp. He was a brilliant man and he could explain things in a very simple manner.

......

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: July 22, 2022 04:32PM

For those who are not acquainted with the breadth of Dr. Hanneman's influence on many fields, here is an interesting article. [www.nationaljeweler.com]

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 22, 2022 04:59PM

When I first received the package containing the CCS articles, I put off reading the stuff for about a month. One afternoon I opened it up and began reading, and that with a jaundiced eye. I wanted to dismiss it. As I'd read a paragraph I'd find a fault and think to myself, "Aha! He didn't factor in the..." then I'd get to the next paragraph and find that he did indeed factor in or address the very issue I thought I'd caught him on. I couldn't find a flaw in it.

From the outset people questioned the validity of the system or argued about where he got his constants. But through it all, no one has yet produced an instance where a rod with a higher ERN that is less powerful than a rod with a lower ERN or a rod with a higher AA that has a slower action than a rod with a lower AA. The thing works perfectly and does so in a simple and reliable manner.

Dr. Hanneman was probably the most clever individual I've ever had the pleasure of knowing.

..............

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: July 22, 2022 07:24PM

Neat! Pretty special person.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: July 23, 2022 09:05AM

Are there any publications of objective measurements comparing performance [casting distance] of a variety of guide trains? Much as I like to speculate I am not particularly interested in the speculations of others. Static measurements of a rod's elasticity don't interest me, since I don't know how static measurements relate to casting performance. I'm beginning to suspect the reason there are no reports of the differences in performance - in feet and inches - between various rods indicates there ARE no significant differences in rod performance?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2022 09:06AM by Phil Ewanicki.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Chris Catignani (---)
Date: July 23, 2022 09:36AM

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are there any publications of objective
> measurements comparing performance [casting
> distance] of a variety of guide trains? Much as I
> like to speculate I am not particularly interested
> in the speculations of others. Static measurements
> of a rod's elasticity don't interest me, since I
> don't know how static measurements relate to
> casting performance. I'm beginning to suspect the
> reason there are no reports of the differences in
> performance - in feet and inches - between various
> rods indicates there ARE no significant
> differences in rod performance?

"I'm beginning to suspect the reason there are no reports of the differences in performance...indicates there ARE no significant differences in rod performance?

Isnt that just speculation also?

The best rods and reels wont give you the ability to cast accurately or far or skip a beaver under a dock.
That comes from skill. The equipment helps...but only to an extent.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 23, 2022 10:38AM

Phil,

Static measurements tell you a great deal if you understand how they relate to what it is that you're trying to do.

If you're trying to cast long distances for Tarpon with large streamer type flies and you have a rod with an ERN of 3 and another with an ERN of 12, do you think there would be any difference in rod performance between those two in performing the intended task?

The equipment does more than help - it allows to you do what you want to do provided you've chosen the right equipment at the outset.

..........

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: July 23, 2022 12:52PM

Chris, I agree skill has a lot to do with skipping a beaver under a dock. But if you're doing it with a bait cast reel, the Shimano DC reels sure help LOL

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: July 24, 2022 05:36PM

A rod pulls (doesn't push) the line. A spinning rod or casting rod can cast only as far as the caster can speed his rod swing. See for yourself: a casting or spinning rod is bent BACKWARD to its greatest extent at the moment the caster releases the line. A fly caster casts his line, not a lure or a sinker, but he can cast a greater distance than just rod speed will produce by "hauling" [pulling] on the fly line. Tom: Lefty Kregh could cast a full fly line (90 feet) with only his hands. His arm had no ERN?

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 24, 2022 06:42PM

His arm did have ERN. You apparently don't understand the value of measurements.

Do you really believe that what most would call, say, a 4-weight rod, could effectively cast a 10-weight line 100 feet?

................

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: July 24, 2022 07:37PM

I think Spencer's post nails it. Fly casting distance depends entirely upon line speed, not rod speed. A fly rod stiff enough not to "fold up" at the end of the cast, no bending of the wrist in the cast, and a short, brisk double-haul should easily provide you with 90 foot fly casts.

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 24, 2022 08:18PM

Phil,

Does the static length measurement provide you with any valuable information?

..........

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Re: Another ERN Question
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: July 26, 2022 07:20AM

Many days, no answer. Some people are better at asking questions than they are at answering them.

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Current Page: 4 of 8


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