The idea was to have something that didn't require anyone to buy anything. Part of the genius of the system. That is why it's named as it is.

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Thanks Michael, David, and Tom for more great CCS info and details.

In my experience with shooting head lines, I generally cast with the head and a few feet of the running line out of the tip at most. As Tom said (and Lefty Kreh, too), overpowering a cast, especially that last forward stroke, can destroy distance. It can also increase tailing loops. Tailing loops cause leader knots; essentially throwing a half-hitch.

For me personally, if I try and double haul too much line, I tend to 'try harder' to keep the line up and moving fast....and this extra effort is what usually wrecks my form and the cast.

Good casting mechanics are key, not that I have them all the time! Finding that match between how much line I can keep under control in the air, with the right rod for the job, is the joy of customizing for me.

Ol' Lefty could cast an entire fly line without a rod (by hand only), and made the point that mechanics/form are essential. Geesh.

I hope you find that sweet spot, Al! Would enjoy hearing about what you found out if you did any testing or experimenting with a couple different lines.

Leslie,
You are describing my problems exactly and lots of tailing loops with the tarpon line. On the 10 I've actually been throwing rio tropical outbound with a 425gr head for big streamers. It took me a long time to even learn that they are designed to be cast the way you describe with just a few feet of running line out of the tip. I would try to carry more and it would fall apart. My typical sequence goes like this...False cast a few times, nice and smooth, line is shooting out there then the last forward stroke I ruin it, jerk it, overpower it and it just falls in a pile about 30 ft out ha ha. I went out this morning to a spot for a little while and tried to keep it smooth and easy with good timing and this rod was firing it out there nicely with an 8" streamer. Totally proves its the man holding the rod. It reminds of my golf game which is pretty bad...set up take a nice easy practice swing and get in front of the ball and do something totally different resulting in a terrible shot.

I actually set up a casting lesson this wednesday so I'm really looking forward to it. I feel like the 40 ft head will be better for that to allow for testing different ranges.

Thanks for all of the help

If gettking tailing loops your rod is not stiff enough

A good general rule for fly casters to follow is "shorten up". Shorten up your forward and back arm/hand movement to 12" - 18" - in a straight line. If you double haul, shorten your hauls to 10" or less. It's line speed, not muscle power, that produces effective casts.

Sorry for my ignorance. I have been fly fishing since I was thirteen years old, going back to when fly lines were designated by three letters instead of numbered weight lines. Can anyone explain to me or guide me to information on what ERN is?

Sorry for this question, but I have been fly fishing since I was thirteen years old, since fly line designations were made with three letters before they began the numbering system. Can anyone explain to me what ERN is about, or guide me to where I can read about this?

Ernie Blum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry for this question, but I have been fly
> fishing since I was thirteen years old, since fly
> line designations were made with three letters
> before they began the numbering system. Can
> anyone explain to me what ERN is about, or guide
> me to where I can read about this?


ERN is a relative scale of rod power. The higher the number, the greater the power. AA is the action. The higher the AA the faster the action.

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And sorry for the double post. I didn't realize that it went through the first time. :-)

Ernie, see the info link in the left column, "Common Sense Info."

Line speed, not rod action, is the only predictor of fly cast distance. All fly rods are equally accurate in their casting ability, but all fly casters? Not so much.The best rod-line combination for any fly caster is the one that feels and casts best, not one that matches some numbers, no matter how or how many test numbers you generate - or what advertising agents for fly rods promise.

How about length? Not worth matching that number either I suppose... I think you are missing the point of why the numbers are important. It is not about them telling you which rod will cast best or farthest. It is about providing you with information as to length, weight, action, power, response, etc. If you have a rod you like and want to come close to duplicating it then having a blank with similar numbers will get you to that point. The more and closer the numbers match the more similar the two rods will be. Or maybe you have a rod you really like but would like just a little more power or a slightly slower action or whatever, the numbers will give you that information to.

There you go, Al!

Casting lessons are great if for nothing else than other eyes are able to see your form (mistakes) better than yours can.

Also, remember not all casting lessons/instructors are the same 'style'; though they will likely follow the same principles. You may or may not find your instructor as helpful as you like for the kind of fishing you do, but you will learn something for sure. Are your lessons with a big game, saltwater-oriented instructor? The basic principles will be the same, but the gear for tarpon vs trout is obviously different.

My learning curve got shortened tremendously when I got a dvd of Lefty teaching various casts. Watched it over and over and over. Lefty was so practical and grounded in what works. I recommend his video instruction materials, if they are still around! There are others out there, too, that may be even better. I had to find the one that spoke to me. (Lefty was one of the pioneers of fly fishing for big, salty fish.)

I don't think my wind knots were a result of my rod's action or power. Granted, finding the action and power that work best for your own rhythm and physical strength plays a role. Technique is the larger part by far. I found that my tailing loops had to do mostly with not getting my rod tip tucked UNDER the trailing line on the fore cast. I could throw a good wind knot on the backcast if I did not keep my wrist, forearm, and elbow in a straight line. A slower action rod might have helped me tuck the tip better on the fore cast, but would have not saved me on my back cast being off-line. Besides, I like fast action fly rods for larger fish and the way I fish for them.

All the Best of Luck!

Leslie,
The lesson went great and yes it was with a guy that is very saltwater oriented. We worked a lot on a smoother power application and delaying the rotation and it has really helped me. It was totally worth it. Saturday I went out with the 10 and the Outbound shooting head and focused on those issues and it was just firing it out there. I have just been trying to muscle it way too much!
Thanks for all of the help
Al

There is confusion about the "power" of fly rods. An efficient fly cast requires the line to be released when the rod is bent the farthest - backward! Watch a cast and you can see this is so. The rod does not store energy and then release it to push the fly line forward. You can't push on a rope - or a fly line - regardless of ERN or any static measurement.

There should be no confusion. Power is stiffness and/or deadlift capability. It has nothing to do with casting or technique. It is an inherent property of any rod. ERN uses a relative number to measure that property just like the inches/centimeters are used to put a relative number on length.

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You can easily overpower a fly rod cast with the arm/hand holding the fly rod. You will end up with a mess of line a few yards in front of you. But you can learn to double-haul with your free hand as hard as you wish and significantly increase your fly casting distance - with no loss of accuracy. Just don't rely upon your rod, or line, or advertisers, to make you a successful fly-caster or fly-fisher.

Tom, maybe you would like to comment on the statement that ERN is ". . . just like the inches/centimeters are used to put a relative number on length." I submit that IP can be characterized as a number like inche/centimeters because there is no "arbitrary" element in IP like there is in ERN. Inches put an absolute value on length, not just a relative value. ERN is derived, not an absolute number. Yes it is relative, higher number means more power, but it is not an absolute number like inches. Or IP.

The inch is based on an arbitrary length. However, just like ERN, it is correct by definition.

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The inch may be based on an arbitrary length but if something is twice as long as something else its measurment in inches will be twice the number of the first length in inches. A rod with an ERNof 20 is not twice as powerful as a rod wtih an ERN of 10. A rod with an IP of 600 is twice as powerful as a rod with an IP of 300. What am I missing when I contend that the absolute measure of power is IP and not ERN?

ERN is a power indicator that is not linear with respect to power. Yes it is relative, and yes it has value. But it has a "fudge factor" in it.