Ok my turn... finally back from selling rods today... all bass rods and EVERY one will be a micro and about half carbon grips. Now you're cooking with gas! All new customers were sold on micros after test casts and all returning customers said "That's the only way to go as far as I can tell."

A few responses (don't get offended if I use your comments but I want to use these comments to bring additional info to light, merely using them as a spring board):

"Have any of your actually put in a decent season with this idea or similar on typical bass waters?"
The folks responding here a multitude of experience with these rods. Not only of their own but converted customers. If you look back through Bobby's posts, he has a very large number of other people using micros. From a business perspective, you can bet he wouldn't be building them if they were coming back. I have myself and 4 other fisherman on micros (one Grand Slam AOY, one BASS Opens, one running local tournament curcuits, one local guide). There's a lot of feedback there. I KNOW I would hear the negatives. Actually I do have one... it's "Man, why didn't you build with these little guides to begin with?"

"we believe that under load the line should not touch the blank then we are going to have to use more of the micro guides than say the Alps guides"
Well, I'm building just a hair above the blank at full load with on top layout. I might go to ten guides, but that's on a 7'9" rod. By standards I've heard, we ought to be using 9 guides (one per foot + one) with standard guides. Now how is one more micro going to negate the effects of the smaller size?

Another question I'll throw in here is look at the guide foot lengths. If memory serves correct (not where I can get to guides to measure), two micro feet is about the length of one size 6 foot, or darn close anyway (correct me if I am wrong... can't get to guides tonight). Isn't the use of micros resulting in less rod finish, less thread, and less interference with the natural flex of the rod because of the smaller "footprint"? This in my mind lets the rod act closer to it's natural, naked state.

"most blanks are not straight, it can become very difficult if not impossible to align the guides so as to provide a straight unobstructed path for the line"
Maybe I'm a freak here, but if I can't look through the tip and see all the way through my guides unobstructed past the stripper, my rods don't pass muster. Yes you may look top down and they don't look 100% straight, but that path the line shoots down through the guides sure is.

"...they are smaller are more difficult to position on the blank and to wrap. This difficulty results... in... taking more time. If you build rods... you are building rods as a business you had better care about it."
Yes there is a learning curve. I can wrap a micro about as fast as a size 6SF. Why? Ok hand wrapping here. Shorter foot = less turning, less packing threads. I've got it down to where the items I use to secure my micros are coming off as the thread works up the foot. One continuous motion. I do process improvement daily in my real job, so I have an eye for finding ways to trim build times. If if does take me longer, it's worth it because the micros are gaining me customers. Example: talked to a traveling basser today on a custom builders "pro staff". Experienced builder - 15+ years. First comment out of this "pro's" mouth - "My guy won't build micros, I've heard about them. If I can't get him to switch for me, what's your build time because I'm coming to you." Again a postive trade off in my book if 5 additional minutes = 5 more rods sold.

"these little guides are one thing that we as builders have over the store bought rods. That is huge"
Understatement.

Other items:
Would someone please weigh these ALPS guides so we can compare? I didn't see weights.
Please note Bill's explanation of the difference in reel spool between flippin' and pitchin'.
Identify the areas micros will not work so folks have a good feel for implementation? (Bass, walleye, etc)

-----------------
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WHAT BOARD SPONSERS CURRENTLY STOCK MICRO GUDES??????

Michael-
I know this list is partial----Swampland.....Schneider's.....Custom Tackle......I'm sure there are others. New enough that all have not gotten them on their sites. Sounds like you are at least considering going "all in". I'd like to know from someone who has contacts at the manufacturers when we can expect to see tiny rings/larger tube sizes! I'm sure that involves some re-tooling and I guess those sizes could present some manufacturing hurdles. When that mousetrap is built-we will come!

Chris

Alex, I now know why you caught the flaw in the preview post with the "Candy" - your attention to detail and thought process is very evident. Congratulations on the successful day selling rods and taking orders in your own booth yesterday! Fun Huh!

Steve G. must be on the water this weekend and we hope he has won another one with the micros. I am sure he will be highly pleased when he sees the interactions on this thread.

As far as the sourcing for tip tips and other micro products goes for custom builders this Rodbuilding.org thread may be support for the Rodmaker articles for gaining needed support to grow the market. Unfortunately, custom builders may not be able to force the manufacturers into producing new products for this market until a production builder picks up on the micro market - they are the ones that drive the market with their larger budgets. I would guess that Rich Forhan would have some idea of how long this will take for the micro market to develop - he has been there before with many new innovations.

The notation to the "line touching the blank" has more impact to bass fisherman than most others and the variations in the answers may surprise a lot of builders.

Don't overlook the value of Perma Gloss as the thread finish of choice for this style. Abrasive resistance - Does not climb frame - light weight - strength of attachment - clarity.

Jeffery WE will miss you all day! Tell others what this means to you!

Gon

Emory,

I think you are in for a surprise when you try your first set of micro guides. When they arrive you'll find them even smaller than you can imagine. The weight is downright silly - even hard to believe.

I won't build rods with the guides on top, other than offshore trolling with roller guides so the issue of line against the blank in a conventional set up is null and void, for me anyway. I do recognize your point on this for those who build this way.

I build on the straightest axis so line path isn't much of an issue either. Although it could be for those who build on the spine or have very warped/curved blanks to deal with. Although, line is highly flexible and that sort of thing doesn't really penalize you much except in the very worst cases.

But as I said, there is no magic bullet. When you can employ them, micros are great primarily due to the weight savings and all that entails in terms of better rod efficiency/performance. But they won't be the very best option in every single situation. I think most here understand that.

I have not seen the Batson guides you mention, but I am familar with the new Pac Bay Minima guides. Very well could be a giant step forward in guide design. Dumping the ceramic ring in favor of the much smaller and lighter swaged steel ring opens up the guide, reduces weight and takes away anything in the ring that can crack or break.

Now if we could just get these guys to dump the steel frames and move to some sort of nylon composite. Guides are still stuck in the 1960's it seems.

.................



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2008 08:57AM by Tom Kirkman.

I am coming to this thread a bit late so I will respond to a few things and maybe leave some others that have been well answered alone for. If I miss something feel free to ask or respond again.

The first thing I realized this morning is that Bill Stevens is a prophet. Without speaking to me, he knew as out fishing.
Then when he referenced this thread as “Volume 1" with over forty post and a mornings worth of reading he proved his prophetic abilities. Can’t wait to read Volume 2

joseph arvay
Probably the most important, and particle questions asked.
“Have any of your actually put in a decent season with this idea or similar on typical bass waters? ECT.”

I fish as many as 32 tournaments a year, next week I enter my fourth season using these litle guides. Having started using them about ½ ways through the first season, I’ve fished everything from slim filled grassy lakes to crystal clear lakes with out the first hint of a problem. I have not fished through a “cotton wood bloom” however

2 notes;
1. Until this season I had not used them on flipping/ pitching rods so I have only one season using rods with heavy lines (up to 50 lb braid or 20 lb mono or floro), but the results have been the same.
2. This includes several rods with Micros as small as-1.5mm, 2mm, and 2.5mm guides on them, both bait casting and spinning.

joseph arvay
“I'll re-search the forum for the tip dilemma, but if anyone cares to give the latest here on corresponding tips or tip-off ideas that'd be great. As I recall, ring size & transition to tip seemed to be a bit of a problem with scarce offerings in terms of size.

This is the one area that has yet to be addressed successfully. It is whoever being addressed by Batson Enterprises. Their chief design engineer and I have started a dialog working on this problem. But to be honest I have dropped the ball on this because of some other obligations I have had to deal with at he same time.
At present I am working with 2 prototype designs and will be back in contact with him in the next two weeks to get the ball moving again. With out question Batson is committed to providing solutions to the builders needs.

Robert Russell
“They don't work well spiral wrapped to pitch/ flip. Bobby has said this before.
Robert;”
A couple of points here; I could be wrong, but I don’t believe Bobby has ever said they “wouldn’t work well spiral wrapped to pitch/ flip”

I have built only spiral wrapped flipping/flipping sticks with them, and they work with out problems. Three things can cause problems on flipping/pitching sticks and they “involve rod design” not guide design.
1. If you use the “simple wrap” spiral setup you will have problems.
2. If you use all the same size guides, then stay with a conventional wrap or you can have a problem with the line sticking.
3. If you use Micro tips on a spiral wrap (regardless of the brand) you will have a problem.
The Batson tips are to soft and the Fuji’s to small and to close to the blank
My suggestions are;
1. Use the same spiral wrap I do or Rich Forhan’s spiral wrap.
2. On spiral wrapped flipping/pitching sticks use an 8 to 10’’ stripper guide then 5mm then 4.5mm before going to 3.5 or 3mm guides.
3. On spiral wrapped flipping/pitching sticks; Use a 6mm Alps tip.

Bill Stevens is also correct in that any retooling to create new designs or parts involves a great amount of expense to the manufacturer and there must be a market large enough to justify the cost.

In closing I am including a link to the test that we (the Micro Maniacs) have adopted to proving the effectiveness of Micro guides in improving Line control, Vibronic frequency, and the distance that can be achieved with a little bit of imagination,
[www.chilloutzone.de]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2009 01:43PM by Steve Gardner.

Tom,
I have looked very closely at the micro guides several times however I admit that I have not built a rod with them.
I am going to have to order some of them this coming week and weigh them and compare the weights of the Alps and Micros. In looking closely at them my guess is that the Alps will not weigh more than all but the very smallest micros. If this is the case then I think that the Alps have definite advantages over the micros. If it is not the case then I am wrong.
I think that you should look at the Alps. They have ceramic rings and the frame extends farther around the ceramic to prevent problems with the ceramic rings coming out. I have built quite a few rods with them and have been very happy with them and have not had a single one returned with guide problems.

Steve G: "In closing I am including a link to the test that we (the Micro Maniacs) have adopted to proving the effectiveness of Micro guides in improving Line control, Vibronic frequency, and the distance that can be achieved with a little bit of imagination,
[www.chilloutzone.de]"

While it wasn't readily apparent to me, I'm sure your testing included responses at various temperatures? If so, that does it for me, I've seen all I need to...I'm ALL IN!

There are some new smaller tops available ...

BNMVAT 4 (3.0, 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5)

The BNMVAT is designed a bit different, so Pat Vinzant is going to get a few from Anglers Resource and report back on them.

BTW, I would have a VERY hard time imagining that the weight of an ALPS #6 is anywhere close to that of a micro guide (4.0 or smaller), or even a few of them combined. A #4 Alconite will fit THRU a #6 guide and a #4 isn't the smallest available ... they are REALLY, REALLY tiny. The numbering system is deceptive. I almost went blind just counting micro guides out for people at the last couple of Expos.

IMO, the biggest limitation of a micro guide setup is that of marketing - which can be overcome with a few demo rods and an investment of time spent with the potential purchaser. They are most definitely a non-traditional approach to line control - but a few casts will convince you that something special is occurring.

I think that one of the biggest issues associated with the use of the “micro” guides is the unavailability of comparable tip-tops. I started using the micros early this spring and rather than use a larger tip-top, that looked dorky with the smaller Fuji 3.5’s, I decided to wrap on another 3.5 single foot for the tops. I was a little skeptical as to its strength, but I’ve used regular unbraced fly type tip-tops in the past without any problems.
I bass fish (Lake Guntersville) every day and much of it in heavy weeds, where my rods have to endure a lot of stress because of “horsing” fish out. I soon noticed that one of my wrapped SF tip-tops appeared to be twisted. Although a bit disappointed, I figured that I’d just straighten it out ‘til I came up with a more permanent solution. As it turned out, I couldn’t even move (twist) it back in alignment……even with pliers. At least not without risking damaging the blanks tip section. I finally concluded that the tip was misaligned to begin with. One of the problems I have at my advanced age, is that of aligning guides. The micros are so small, that seeing them clearly towards the end of the rod is difficult.
Anyway…..I digress……After almost a full season of heavy service, all my micro built rods have survived with absolutely no problems. (Btw, I did remove and rewrap the crooked SF tip.) Probably the biggest problem anyone might have with a SF guide wrapped on as a tip-top would be in “handling abuse”….as opposed to “fishing abuse”. I should note that I do have several “2nd string” rods that I used Fuji alconites 4mm guides and SF tip. For some reason the alconite SF doesn’t seem nearly as strong as the LSG 3.5’s and seemed to bend quite easily. I tried a Forecast DSHK 4mm tip-top (unbraced) and it bent just as easily.
In summary, I’m very pleased with the performance and the durability of the micros….including the SF’s used for tip-tops (without “locking wraps”). My rods are all “conventionally” wrapped (guides on top) and I use 20 lb braid for most of my fishing.

Regarding the above flipping/pitching rod design issues with micro's....

1. If you use the “simple wrap” spiral setup you will have problems.
2. If you use all the same size guides, then stay with a conventional wrap or you can have a problem with the line sticking.
3. If you use Micro tips on a spiral wrap (regardless of the brand) you will have a problem.

Is there more explanation of the above? Maybe I just missed it in RM or on RBO somewhere. If so, could you point me to where it is discussed? Thanks in advance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2008 03:21PM by Steven Libby.

Jim;
Thanks fort he update on the Fuji tips, but looking at them the one thing they still have not addressed is tube size.
Yes they have increased them, but only up to 4.1mm from 3.9mm and even then you have to step up to a size 5mm ring.


Steven yes and no
1- On different occasions I have recommended when asked which types of spirals to use?
That they stay away form the simple wrap while the simple wrap is a great set up, it is not the best choice to use with Micros

2- This was brought to my attention by another builder and since I had not personally dealt with it and don’t have all the facts, I left it up to him to post. He chose not to and that is were it stands. Maybe he will do so if he reads this post

3- This is something that I have just recently figured by working with another builder on the problem. It does not apply when using braid, only heavy mono or floro 20 lb and above.

Because of the stiffness of the two when the line is bent at angle after the tip. It creates an arch in the line or slightly larger radius that pushes the line against the blank right behind the tip (when using lighter lures) which can restrict the pitch or flip.
On a conventional wrapped rod the arch is pushed up and away from the blank. So it is not a concern. So my suggestion is to stay with an Alps tip.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2008 03:43PM by Steve Gardner.

According to my scale, the size 6 Alps weigh 3 grains and the 3.5s from Batson weigh 1.2 grains. I weighed both the H ring and the Zirconium. I like the Alps guides and they are indeed very light.

Robert,
Thanks, but I guess that I stand corrected. Your measurements indicate that the Alps is over twice as heavy as the 3.5s which says that even if you have to use a couple more of the micros the micros will, in total, still be significantly lighter.. That is certainly a bigger weight difference than I would have expected.
Are those the weights for H rings for both? Were they single or double footed? I think that the Zirconium is a little heavier.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2008 07:04PM by Emory Harry.

Emory;
Your quote:
“Steve
There is not as you put it a "substantial" weight reduction using micro guides versus the Alps or "pales in comparison' to using the micro guides as opposed to using the light weight Alps guides, especially when you use more of the micro guides because of their small size. "Substantial" and "pales by comparison" is just silly.”

Whether you realize it or not I greatly respect you and have learned a lot from you even though there have been times we do not agree on theories, designs, or materials.

But I have a request;
In the future when you chose to discredit what I say or dismiss it as silly you at least have the facts to do so.
Being an Electrical Engineer who is so committed to “empirical evidence”, I am amazed that you have used pictures of micro guides to base you opinions and evidences on. For even I know you cannot judge the weight of an Item by weighing the picture.
Instead of arguing for Mr. Kirkman to get some Alps guides in his hands before voicing his opinions I would suggest you follow you own advice.

When you consider the less amount of epoxy and thread on top of the guide weight savings. What you consider “significant” I consider substantial.

I will have to take a look at the ALPs guides just to see for myself. I have some of the micros here and they are rediculously small and light enough to be almost "weightless" (don't take that out of context).

I am still looking for some of the old mid 1990's Daiwa Dynaflow guides in the nylon frames for an experiment. Thought I could find some on an older yard sale rod but so far, no luck.

Steel and ceramic should be old history by now. There is a better way.

...............

Bobby Feazel 10ea - Fuji SIC Ring LSG 3.5's - 0.42 grams = 1.837 Digital pocket scale

Robert Russel Batson 3.5 - 1.2 grains - Alps 3 grains according to my scale

Bill Stevens confused dude - Digital Pocket scale - numbers similar to Bobby's reported weights.

Bobby and I have similar digital cheapo pocket scales purchased at Harbor freight. We are basing all of our builds based upon the results of the weights we are seeing on our personal units.

From the above it would appear that the Batson 3.5s are the lightest of the weights reported. The accurate weights of these guides really would be quite important. Robert could you weigh 10 of the Batson Miros on your scale and report you findings. Thanks

Bobby F., Lance Dupre and I layed out a spread of the Batson micros and the Alps guides today for a weigh in of comparative weights on Lances' shop electronic postage meter. We are now of the opinion that the miniscule weights may be reported differently on various scales using different weiging techniques. We need to find a way to get exact weights of all of the various guide choices available done in the same place under the same conditions.

If some has a material balance that these guides could be accurately weighed in a group to determine average unit weight it would be greatly appreciated.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2008 09:22PM by Bill Stevens.

Bill, I have a triple beam scale that would probably work well.

Jeff you have the Batson's we shipped you - Bobby has the Fuji Sic - I can mail the Alps to Bobby's shop - you are going to see him next week - can you take your scale with you for an official weigh in for the M&M next Volume? If not I will send you the Fuji and Alps guides you need to compare weights on the same scale.

We had a good day - sorry you could not make it!