Bill, I will bring the scale with me to Bobby's this week & we'll get the Official weights for the next volume of the M&M.
I too was sorry!!!!! I'd like to give a jingle in the morning if that workd for you?
Thanks,
Jeff Micro

Bill

Although I did not get to meet Clyde, it was a very good day with you and Lance . Many thanks for the hospitality. Sorry you couldn't make it Jeffery.

Now to catch up with this thread.

Robert R

Steve G is correct, I did not say this. “They don't work well spiral wrapped to pitch/ flip. Bobby has said this before." Sorry for the confusion.

Since my first introduced to mirco's, every rod I have built has been with micro's in a conventional style and I must confess that there has been one problem that I have not exposed until now.

Seems a guide friend of mine here on Toledo Bend was out on the lake some time back and had the need to change reels on one of my rods. He removed the reel and as he reached down to pick up a different reel he held the rod tip down over the side of the boat with the guides facing down. Yep, reel locking nut slid all the way to the tip and went straight to the bottom of the lake.

As far a guide weights are concerned, lets get some hard facts first then we will have a basis upon which to discuss and learn. Happy to help where I can.

Steve Gardner,
On simple spiral, you said.
"1- On different occasions I have recommended when asked which types of spirals to use?
That they stay away form the simple wrap while the simple wrap is a great set up, it is not the best choice to use with Micros "

Can you enlighten us on what problem to expect with mircros on simple spiral?

Thanks,

Anthony Lee

Anthony;
Yes but not from personal experience, because I have never done one.
I have had a few other builders email me that when setting up a Simple Spiral wrap the rods would not cast very well. My suggestion was to try a different spiral wrap, which in each case corrected the problem. Based on this info, when asked I have suggested that people stay away from this simple setup with Micro’s

Now it could be the way they set things up or the type of spiral wrap. But the only common denominator to my knowledge was the Simple Spiral wrap.
So I put the info out there.

There will be a few times that I (WE) post info based on what others are experiencing with their setups and sometimes what they did to correct it. Both as info and as learning tools, in hopes that others who have worked out different design challenges would also offer info while we continue to learn the applications best suited for the Micro’s
I also do not know what the guide sizes were in each case, whether they stepped down in sizes or used all the same size.

If you or others have had different results building with the Simple Wrap and Micro’s. It would be of great benefit to post that info. It could in the cases I’ve mentioned still have been “user error”.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2008 07:39AM by Steve Gardner.

Steve,

Thank you for your explanation. So, far, all my simple spiral running guides are Fuji's T-LSG 6s. On a typical 6'6", 10-17 rod, I will normally use a Fuji T-LNSG 8 stripper, T-LSG 6 for bumper and 7 running guides all size 6. I have not experienced any casting problem. For my next rod, I will substitude all the running guides with 3.5 and will report here if there is any problem.

Cheers,

Anthony Lee

Because the Simple Spiral offers the straightest line path of any of the various spiral wraps, it should cast better than the others, micros or not. What I often see, when someone shows me their "Simple Spiral" wrap, is something altogether different. Remember, most internet users have never actually read the article.

I have done them with size 4 guides and casting was excellent. I have used anything smaller, yet, but suspect that casting would not be affected.

I would not use anything much smaller than a size 12 for the butt guide, however, as nothing much smaller will meet the proper criteria for what a butt guide must do.

............

Bobby,
Sorry about the confusion on spiral wrapped flipping/ pitching micro rods.


I weighed 10 of the Alps H rings and Zirconiums and the Batson 3.5s.
-------------Grams---Grains
H Ring------2.0--------30
Z Ring------2.1--------32
3.5------------.8--------12

My scale is cheap, under $20, but was recommended to me by the guys at the jewelry company I worked for.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2008 10:52AM by Robert Russell.

I recently built up a "bumpered" 3C70MF designated for jigging. Used #8 blnag, a #5 Batson sf (bumper), and #4 Batson micros on out, including tip. Split grip, foregrip-free, without any other "decorative" weight added (thread, inlays, etc.) So far, so good - light as a feather and zero casting problems. (My only wish now is for sturdier, and larger-tubed micro tip tops!)

This is a great resource. Thanks everyone, and Mr. B.S. for starting it. ;)

#1 - FT905 with holo Amtak 10df, 6F bumper, and #5s as the running guides. It is a flipper, but I tried pitching and it does not cast (pitch) well with braid. It does better with mono (flouro).
#2 - Lamiglas IMC864 with a #8 df, 6F bumper, and 3mm guides on the bottom. It pitches like a dream with 17# flouro, and casts very well. It doesn't like braid for pitching.
#3 - CB70MH with about the same setup as #2. It fishes great, but casting distance is not what I'd like so I will try a different (Forhan) spiral on it for next year.

These all have very good Quantum or Shimano reels. I swapped reels and used flouro & braid on each rod for testing.

My personal findings seem to support what I am reading about small guides, braid, and simple spiral. I need to do some tweaking with different butt guides and such.

Chuck



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2008 11:57AM by Chuck Mills.

Guess what!

Some of the engaged rodbuilders have decided to emerge from the closet and are wisely playing their chips!

Thanks to all who participated in M&M Volume 1

Task on table for completion this week - Witnessed Material Balance Weight Comparison of Available Guides under same conditions by Mr. Feazel and Mr. Friend.

Topic Next Volume - Open for Suggestion

New Topic:

How about a new unit of measurement / bragging rights? I propose the unit of +grams, which is the finished weight of the rod minus the weight of the bare blank. By keeping track of the weight added to the rod we can keep trying to advance the craft, and build the most efficient rods possible.

Very interesting idea Mike!

I believe grams is a better unit than ounces. Y'all keep this up and we'll be going to grains. Time to pull out the reloading scale...

I also think we could look at weight reduction % as compared to the total rod build. Yes .5 oz doesn't sound like much, but it's a 14% of a 3.5 oz build. That is a significant percentage.

2 Suggestions for Future Topics of Discussion:
- Micro Handles - new concept here... let that stew in your mind...
- "Out of the box" weight reduction techniques - example - an EVA butt cap is far lighter than a Composite Cork butt cap (Chris Davis revealed this discovery to me this weekend during a two person mini convention), drilling holes in a reel seat, etc

-----------------
AD

Maybe we should go stealth on this. If we start seeing micro guide rods at wally we're all screwed.

You will know a difference has been made when boat builders start using 1/2" rod tubes in the rod lockers.

-----------------
AD

Everyone,

I want to personally thank you all for your support. We appreciate all the input and the usage of our Components. I can remember when Steve Gardener first approached me about this product line and how he needed some of these guides to do some tests. It has grown as I have seen other trends grow within this great industry, that is the ART of Rod building.
We look forward to many years of supporting the Great Art / Industry of Rod Building.

Bill Batson - CEO
The Entire Batson Enterprises. TEAM...

877-875-2381
www.batsonenterprises.com
batson@batsonenterprises.com

I was first introduced to these guides about eight years ago and wondered why they were not more readily available. I was informed by our factory that these were designed for the Japan market to be used on what they called the Match rod very unlike what we call the match guide aka model "M guide". These rods are up to tweleve feet long and used for catching very small trout if I remember corectly. I'm sure some of our Japanese viewers will chim in on this one and I'm sure there is a ton more than I'm typing up about the history of the mini guide and I may be completly wrong as well but really this is no new guide.

I was approached by a manufacture that was interested in a very light guide for a series of down rigger rods for Kokanee lake fishing. The blank was very similar to the RDR76L and with normal guides the tip would sag significantly. I mentioned these micro guides but explained that I had no idea how durable they would be due to there small stature. They said that thay have used some other ones that worked out in testing and desided to try ours as well with great luck.

These guides to the best of my knolagle due to durability issues were never introduced to the abuse we put them through so I assume this is why they are just comming to light because you folks are actually putting them to the test. I would say I'm extreamly surprised that they are holding up but on the other side very excited about the possibilities. We asked our Factory for some extra samples to show several years ago at the Rod Expo as well as a few choice builders like Steve to try them out and low and behold here we are. I do feel every one of our guides have there place in this market but I would have to believe that the Micro guides will be seen on more and more factory rods in the near future. I'm pleased to see that they do hold up to some of the more serious fisherman but still just like spiral wrapping will be many years before if ever they become the norm.

Personally I still use and build with the Light XN Alps guides because they show durability, light weight and beauty and no explanation required. I'm excited to see new and improved methods every day and thank all of you for working so hard to build a better Mouse trap. Best Regards, Karry Batson

Karry Batson
Batson Enterprises Inc.
Ph: (877) 875-2381
Fax: (360) 683-3579
karry@batsonenterprises.com
www.batsonenterprises.com

OK, OK, I give up, I was wrong. The micro guides are significantly lighter than the Alps. It isn't the first time I have been wrong and in all probability will not be the last.

Mike,
I think that your idea of keeping track of the added weight in an attempt to minumize the added weight and build the most efficient rod is a good idea. I would point out though that the distribution of the weight is as important as the total weight. Added weight has dramatically more affect at the tip than at the butt. The problem is that weight distribution is much more difficult to measure. It usually involves the destruction of the blank/rod which obviously does not make any sense for rod builders. To get at efficiency we must also put stiffness into the calculation. But at least stiffness can be easily measured.

OK, OK, I give up, I was wrong. The micro guides are significantly lighter than the Alps. It isn't the first time I have been wrong and in all probability will not be the last.

Mike,
I think that your idea of keeping track of the added weight in an attempt to minumize the added weight and build the most efficient rod is a good idea. I would point out though that the distribution of the weight is as important as the total weight. Added weight has dramatically more affect at the tip than at the butt. The problem is that weight distribution is much more difficult to measure. It usually involves the destruction of the blank/rod which obviously does not make any sense for rod builders. To get at what most people refer to as efficiency we must also put stiffness into the calculation. But at least stiffness can be easily measured.

Emory, I like your style.