Bill, you crack me up! I don't understand half of what you write but I'm looking forward to meeting you anyway.

Joseph, I noticed that the micros stop the cottonwood before it gets to the reel, which I like. It blows off on the next cast.

Emory, there is much freedom in surrender. Keep an open mind. Sometimes reality blows science away. :) I am interested in the Alps guides so please post a model number here so I can check it out.

I have 4 rods with guides as small as 3mm. I am very happy with the casting rods - one is a Lami pitching rod and the other a Batson CB rod, and both simple spiraled. i won't go back!

The spinning rods need some work (my fault) , but they are definitely lighter in the tip than similar conventional rods.

I also have two spinning rods with 4mm M guides. One is a crappie rod and the other is my wife's walleye rod. She doesn't like the handle so it didn't get much time on it, but the guides are very light, but a bit fragile.

One thing that I haven't seen posted here yet - these little guides are one thing that we as builders have over the store bought rods. That is huge.

Chuck

Have to thank Bob Feazel and Joe Vanfossen for there responses based on EXPERIENCE with micro guides.

Bill, enjoy the game and have a great weekend. I'll think of your comments during tonights Tournament and crack a smile, the smile itself should force a few laydowns from opponents.

MJ

Bill,
Please do not misquote me. Others may not care about your distortions but I do especially when you refer to the things that I have said.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2008 08:17PM by Tom Kirkman.

Emory

Due to the Bad vibrations that have been recieved from your posts it seems that they have a direct relationship to the damping of the spirit of the board.

Since you have not tried the micro system you really have no basis to argue from , do you ??

Lordy...Lordy...Lordy ... Dem "Chest Thumpers"done poured out of the woodwork on dis go round... Lordy....Lordy...Lordy.
Who is the holder of the "Black Marble" this time ???? Dem "Good Ole Boys" done held all the Aces me thinks.

Tight Lines
Tight Wraps
Fishin'Stix by Fred

The original intent of this thread was to document the current state of the art for builders who are actively working the micro rod technology for certain custom projects. I had hoped to use this information as a data base for those who desire to utilize this new technology to build customize rods for specific markets. Not only is the information needed for the building of the rods but it can also be used for presenting them to the public (selling) in a truthful, reasonable and effective manner.

I am looking for several things:

1. Actual problems encountered when the proposed set ups are not working for one reason or another.

2. Successful applications of the current or user modified technology that may include other features generally not known to other custom builders.

3. Answers to questions for those interested in doing some actual builds using the micro technology.

I would hope that those taking the position that the micro process is flawed and have no intention of performing actual builds using the concepts proposed will open another thread on this board with an appropriate title.

I would like to get back to the business at hand.

Every custom builder has a desire to build a better rod.

Note:

I wrote this post and stared at it for about ten minutes before punching the Post Message Button. It was originally written with a we but I have gone back and edited it to change it to the first person. Shoot at me all you want but please do not fire at the process because of personal reasons.

Bill Stevens



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2008 07:21PM by Bill Stevens.

Bill,
Good luck with your data base.
If your are referring to me when you say "those taking the position that the micro process is flawed and have no intention of performing actual builds using the concepts" then you again misquoting me. If you will go back and read the original posts you will find that I said that using the micro guides involved tradeoffs or compromises. The use of any guide involes trade offs or compromises though naturally they may not be the same compromises. That is really the larger point, that everything that we do as rod builders involves trade offs or compromises and in my judgment we should at least be aware of what those compromises or trade offs are..
By the way, notice that I quoted you correctly.

Thank you Emory and maybe now we can proceed.

If you have other negative issues that apply directly to the rods that are presently being built that you have not previously presented on this thread please submit them. If you have not seen the details and build descriptions for this stuff please take a look at the logic and build techniques currently being utilized by a bass fishermen/builder at Bobby Feazels' web site for Shockwave Rods. This may give you a more detailed insight as to what is on the plate of many custom builders.

GO TIDE!

Thanks, Gents! I appreciate the experience reports on the use of these guides, sometimes when I think an idea great at the bench it ends up getting a "full moon" and snicker response from reality once I'm on the water. I think you all know what I mean, it's humbling at times.

Doesn't sound like the tiny inner circle is anymore prone to line interference with pond scums than the larger ones, looks like a re-wrap project might be a go for a certain rod of mine...a 3wt spinning whip that could use a bit less weight on the tip half of the rod. These guys get a bit waggly just from guide weight alone, don't know about the resonance thing here, but as is I can FEEL a mayfly fart on the tip. Downsizing of guides oughtn't be a problem on this rod, PP 2/8 is my braid of choice so elbow room not needed for line diameter or temperature differences/mono coiling.

I'll re-search the forum for the tip dilemma, but if anyone cares to give the latest here on corresponding tips or tip-off ideas that'd be great. As I recall, ringsize & transition to tip seemed to be a bit of a problem with scarce offerings in terms of size. Self use rod here and matching components not an issue, pure functionality trumps all on aesthetics for me.

Chuck, cottonwood stopper effect sounds like an advantage for a summer panfish rod, c-wood is heck in the spool. Beyond that a simple cardboard Q-tip stem cut at an angle would likely make a decent eye clearing tool. Scissored or clipped at a 45 degree angle, these stems would have a tapered tip that fits nicely into the guide and only need to be rotated or spun with the fingers to remove any build-up quickly. If even needed that is, with Bobby having to actually check for guide gunk it probably isn't.

Micros look like they may have a place in some applications, in my arsenal anyway. My was intent is not to hunt for the negatives, but more to find where the positives may be...and to divert the thread into serving my own selfish, panfishing needs!

Bill, you can pay me later.
Jeff

Anything you can do to reduce weight on the blank tends to increase rod performance. Or the other way to say this, is that the more weight you add to the blank the more you reduce its performance in some manner. When I say "performance" I'm talking about the entire package - casting distance and ease, sensitivity, balance, fisherman comfort, etc.

When the micro guides can be successfully employed, they offer a great way to reduce weight, particularly on the mid and tip of the blank. It is this weight reduction that boosts performance. There is nothing magical about the micro guides themselves - it's the weight reduction that matters.

But there is no magic bullet. There will be fishing situations where the diminutive size of the micro guides will not allow you to employ them successfully. Only you can determine if they'll work on your rod and for your specific fishing task.

Upon first seeing them, it's quite natural to assume that such tiny little guides couldn't easily pass line or hold up to tough fishing situations. But the proof is in the pudding. They are capable and quite adept at more than most would suspect.

Again, if you can successfully employ them, you'll reap some benefits. And when they're simply too small or too "something" to work for your specific task, you'll have to go larger. But you always want to use the smallest and lightest guides that will do the job and hold up to the task at hand. That's always been a good rule to follow - it's just been that lately we suddenly have guides that are far smaller than at any point in rod building history.


................

Mr. "Friend" is that is your real name I call that a real nasty comment! I hope your are aware that I offered you the opportunity to pay direct, cash in hand, with personal attention early tomorrow morning.

Joseph I feel for you pan fish needs there are available products on the market for tip tops. The new Batson Micro tops may be just the ticket for the rods you are using. They come with brass tubes to 5.5 and do have a Micro Ring.

The tip top issue for bass rods with more powerful actions is one of the missing links at present. I really was hoping someone would bring it up. If anyone has installed or built a functional heavy duty micro tip top for bass service we surely would like to track them down.

On rods up to a tip diameter of 5.5, I am using the Fuji braced tops with a stainless steel 4.5 tube, split or sectioned, and 4.2 SIC Ring at the advice of Mr. Feazel. These are the only MICRO tip tops that I have been able to use successfully that will take the abuse. On other rods with larger tip diameters I am forced to use other conventional tip tops with larger tubes. That forces the use of a size 6.0 mm ring. Hopefully one of the manufacturers will establish a viable market for the development of a true micro ring tip top that is braced for bass rod service.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2008 08:39PM by Bill Stevens.

Joseph,
Here's a quick summary of the micro's issues from my experience. It will take you a few rods to get "accustomed" to wrapping them. Customers will really question them. I've got a few guides using them, so they give some credibility to the idea, but people still are hesitant.

They don't work well spiral wrapped to pitch/ flip. Bobby has said this before , and after this past weekend I'll agree. I had a customer demo a handful of micro guide rods, all spiral wrapped, and his only complaint was the flipping stick. I'll build one with them on top and have him give it another try. Other than that, he loved the rods.

The Batson tops for the micros seem too flexible and not very strong. I've had a guide using them now for over 2 months and about 40 days on the water with no problems, but we'll see. I also wonder how well the inserts will hold up, but again no problems reported yet. The guide I've sold them to is very hard on rods. He has 12 rods waiting to return to a major OEM for warranty replacement to give you an idea. He only breaks 2 or 3 rods a year, but blows out inserts and tips like crazy.

The other thing he questioned is if the micros will freeze more than "standard" guides. He's on the water during even the worst cold spells and has had problems with guides icing over. I'll know more about the micros by January or February.

Every customer I've sold a micro guide rod to has been very happy. They are all shocked how far the little guides cast, even though I've told them before I noticed no loss of casting distance.
Hope that helps,
Robert

Tom,
Have you looked at the Alps guides, the light weight ones? The smallest ones that I am using are number 6s and I think that they weigh less than all but the smallest micro guides plus because they are larger you can probably get by with one less guide out toward the tip than is the case with the micros on a conventionally wrapped rod which will naturally end up with less overall weight. I have also been very pleased with how durable they are. When I first started using them I expected more problems than I have had with damaged guides.
I am going to order some of the micros so I will know exactly what the weight difference is.

Mr. Stevens, that is not my real name, but it has worked up until now. Hopefully, the law doesn't monitor this channel so I'm not forced to change it again. I am extremely disappointed that we'll not be together tomorrow, but I will pick your brain during the week in order to keep up in some pathetic manner. Bobby was great help to me today also! Thanks to you both!!!!!
I'll start the search for a new last name.
Jeff

Now we are cooking!

Robert the flippin/pitching stick -

If the difference in pitching and flipping was describes as follows:

Flipping the reel spool does not turn - Pitching the reel spool does turn

Which exact technique was he using or both?

Target distance approximately for pitch or flip in feet -

Was the problem in longer casts with this rod or the above shorter pitching/flippin?

Which spiral setup? Bumper or Revolver/Trasitional Style

Robert hope you reread this before reply: One more question Braid or Mono on the Flipping Rod

Many thanks for the post!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2008 09:12PM by Bill Stevens.

Emory, are you speaking of the the F type guides? And which of those are the ones you recommend.
Thanks for your help.
Jeff

Jeff,
Yes, but I have been using both the single and double footed ones and even though they are SS316 stainless I prefer the black powder coated ones because they have been shown in the Batson's salt spray testing to be the most corrosion resistant.

Emory, Thanks, I'm going to give them a try!
Jeff