The funny thing is that for so many years I've had to try and convince potential customers that my custom rods are more than just run of the mill rods with "fancy" thread work! Really, that's the sort of thing I hear all the time, that our custom rods aren't any better than factory rods, they just have fancy thread work on them. Sort of a of stigma that I've felt I had to live down and prove otherwise.

It's made me have to strive for a rod that is actually better than a factory rod and one that I can demonstrate as being better in some regard. The Ergonomics article in the recent RM is the sort of thing that helps me build a better rod than a factory rod and one that the user can easily tell is a better rod.

I still like to do "fancy" thread work on my own rods, but I rarely do it on my customers' rods. They don't want it, and won't pay me what it's worth. That's the only reason I leave it off.

Good statement Rob. The fishermen I built for want a rod that would out preform a factory rod
Good Wraps Bob

Actually, I don't think Lawrence was wanting to entice more folks to buy custom threadwork, but rather to understand why so few seem to care about it enough to ask him (or pay him) to do any on the custom rods he's building for them. If this is what he's asking, I think it's been answered pretty well and that everyone is pretty much in agreement with the basic reason why his customers aren't that interested in decorative threadwork.

................

Emory,

You mention something that I find sort of interesting and it's something that I've come to realize in the last couple years. The rods I built 20 years ago looked every bit as good (if not much better) than what I build now. But the rods I build now are far superior in terms of performance, than what I built back then. I have some very nice rods tucked away here that I built many years ago. But I couldn't stand to fish with them now. They're light years behind in terms of what I'll call "fishability" to what I've built in the past few years. But at the time I built them, they seemed to be about as good as they could possibly be. Now I look back at them and wonder why I did certain things the way I did them. What the heck was wrong with me?

Just goes to show that as time marches on, we do continue to learn and with experience and newfound techniques we continue to advance. It never stops unless you shut your eyes and ears.

..............

Tom,
Yes, I had some rods that like you I thought were pretty nice when I built them but I look at them now and think that I would not fish with them now. Actually I gave a bunch of rods away to some kids at the coast a few years ago just to get rid of them.

Billy, I consider the work you do the Icon of custom rod building. I am blown away by your art offerings. I have been trying to get one simple butt crosswrap done for two months and i'm still left scratching my head. By the way I'm needing to buy a copy of your book, can ya recomend a sponsor to hook me up?

Hey, Bob, you spelled marbleizing correctly, too!!!

Putter
Williston, ND

Emory, You can call it what you want, but I call it ART!!!! I don't buy the argument that what Doc, MJ, Billy, Al Ciner, etc can be equaled by anyone with some practice. There are many (particularly myself) that pwill never reach that level of creativity. These people can build highly functional fishing tool that will brobably eaqual anyones, but I seriously doubt that most who build great performing fishing rods can equal their artistic ability

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Thanks Randy at least you noticed:))
Good Wraps Bob PS put larger fuse in spell checker

Russell,Here`s the deal.[]

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

I will now try to extend teh, (**) boundaries of this wonderful thread. Could it be that "aRTsy offerings", (**) , be used on bass rods, in the split grip area to "BALANCE", (**), the tip heav flippin stick, in order to increase "SENSITIVITY", (**) , after extended periods of use by bass fishermen. Two layers of thread, four coats of CP and four layers of finish in that area with a 100 thread weave, (**) and finish on top may just do the trick. Could it be that this would improve sales more than handing them a 50 caliber shell loaded with 2.5 oz of lead removable rod balancing insert and leaving the butt cap not epoxied in place..** I do not keep guns in the shop for fear of getting shot at time of "request for cash payment for services rendered".

** I am "pulling the chain" on hopefully all sides of this complex issue!

When I offered wraps for extra cost, I didn't do many. When I included them in the cost of a rod, whether a wrap was done or not, I did a lot more. It also depends on area. In this area, the majority of fisherman have two preferences. Exposed blank seats and cork grips. Beyond that, they have no idea of what makes a good rod nor do they care to learn. All they want is a good rod, though they don't know what that really is. Only that they know what one feels like. This is true for not only the weekend guy but also bass pros. The bass pros at least generally have a blank preference.. usually Loomis. And again, they don't really know why, only that they believe Loomis makes the best bass rods... until I give them something different... then brand loyalty usually goes out the window.

99% of folks in this area view their rods as tools and nothing more. They look at a rod the same way they would look at a hammer in a toolbelt. Actually, with less worth. They consider rods as disposable tools. A rod that lasts 5 years? Mmmmm.. maybe. A rod that lasts 20 years? Now that's just crazy talk. The idea that a rod can be an extension of personality and/or can be something to be cherished is completely foreign. It's not that they prefer plain jane rods, they just don't care. In they end, they generally just say "Do whatever you want to do, as long as it does what you say it will". They will risk drowning to save a $5 lucky hat, but will chuck a $250 rod into a pickup bed like a piece of firewood. I grew up in the opposite environment so it is very strange to me to see how folks view and treat rods around here. Slowly, I'm turning them though.

A definition of art: 1.
the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.

So I think you can call decorative thread wraps art. But I think what Larry needs to face is that most fishermen are not looking for art, they are looking for fishing rods, and good ones at that. What is the point of art work on a fishing rod? How many are going to shell out the bucks for that? I have not found many that will.

If you enjoyed playing golf and wanted to improve your score and make the most of your time on the course, would you be more inclined to buy a set of golf clubs that had diamond wraps on the shafts near the handle, or would you prefer to spend the same or less money on a set of clubs that simply gave you greater distance and control? And which would be the better set of clubs? I think most of us know which set we would buy and you need to carry this over to the question of fishing rods and what most fishermen are looking for.

It's not an either/or situation - you don't have to choose between pure function and cosmetic enhancement. You can do both on the same rod. Sometimes it requires the judicious use of certain things in certain areas to keep from ruining the performance by the addition of things that can be detrimental. But a good rod builder understands where and how to achive both without hurting either.

The fact does remain, however, that the vast majority of fishermen will never pay for custom threadwork. But such threadwork or other cosmetic enhancements will sell rods for you. Any rod builder who sells rods to the public should have samples, some of which include threadwork, feathers, woodwork, grip inlays, etc. By showcasing all your skills, you're letting the buying public know that you possess a wide range of ability. They may not order a rod with a decorative butt wrap, but they might have been convinced to buy from you because they were impressed by the work they saw on one of those samples.

................

The first week of July we planned on a fishing trip to the mountains of NC to do some trout fishing. I went to my rod room and selected a couple of rods to take with me. One of the rods was built close to 20 years ago the other was built maybe 2 years ago. The 20 year old rod has a beautiful tartan wrap and run of the mill components and a half wells grip. The newer rod doesn't have any decoration at all other than an inscription but it does have top of the line components and the grip is a full wells and much more comfortable in the hand.
On the creek both rods fish just fine the old rod still draws comments from other fisherman on the water. In essence that's what were talking about here. The thread art is a drawing card to our business. I've heard it said that the thread art does not catch fish. Just depends on what you are fishing for. How many of you have been casting in the yard and have someome drive up and say "you can't catch anything on dry land". My reply has always been "I caught you".

Emory, as bad and as inexperianced of a fisherman as I may be, ....I manage to get you to get hooked each and every time I want you to take the bait and post on a thread you have no business posting on, lol. Thanks for the love. It did take a little longer this time, so I guess maybe I'll try some Fluorocarbon so you're not so wary.


"Something that anyone with reasonable manual dexterity, patience and practice can do cannot be classified as art. "

As book smart as you are, you just told everyone on this forum that Painters & Sculptures are not artists. You compromise your intelligence to put down adn disrespect all teh srtists who have ever done a wrap, weave, grip, featehr, etc,e tc on a rod. THat's not very nice, nor is it accurate.

Rishard, just because you havent' found people willing to pay, doesnt' mean they are not out there. Doc, Mark Crouse & plenty of others have no shortage of rod orders looking for this type of work. I didn't want to insult people, but the truth is - if you are not very good at "art", you will have a dificult time convincing people to buy it. As stated several times on this post, it also depends on teh type of rods you build and your market. You guys all seem to focus on teh most elite fishermen in the US, meanwhile there's a whole nother market of weekend fishermen with big fancy boats wh have no clue what they are doing, and are more than willing to pay more than top dollar for a rod. TAke a look at Bill Stevens post on the photo board where he "fleeced" his customer , adn the customer was proud to be fleeced. That particular guy didnt want an artsy rod, but tehre are a LOT out there who do. Especially in teh SW up in the NOrth East, East Coast, and out in Cali....which is why it seems many of teh thread artists are from these parts. No coincidence.

Billy, sorry I did not mean to offend the artist in you , as I stated you are a dang fine artist and deserve to be on top along with alot of others..
yet I think Emory said in a few words what I was getting at .
I give the customer what they want...I give them a stick to fish with at a reasonable price and if they have deep pockets and want some artwork they will get that also...You see I am one of those people you seem to place below you "A Dime A Dozen Person"
I said I was into rod crafting as a hobby and love of doing so ...not the bucks...There is a LARGE difference between a Craft Person and
a Artist...a Craft person [to me] can offer his skills he has learned without taking a hit on the ego of the artist in him.

Tight Lines
Tight Wraps
Fishin'Stix by Fred

Billy,
You make an interesting point. Actually I do not think that most people that paint or do sculptures are artists either. I think that most are craftsmen. I guess that what is and is not art is a judgment call. I am certainly not putting down the people that do outstanding work. In fact, I am a big admirer of the work done by people like Doc Ski, Jim Upton, Scott Troop, Terry Hansen and a number of others. I think what they do takes a great deal of experience, skill, patience and imagination but I guess each of us will have to decide for ourselves if it is art or craft..
Your comment about me not having any business commenting on a post is also interesting because I have often thought the same about your comments. For example, you have a lot of advice to give about what sells rods and does not sell them but just how many rods do you sell?

As far as hooking me is concerned, don't flatter yourself. I occasionally look at other boards and see you making the same sort of ill mannered comments on other boards where I do not post.

I think you guys will want to take this argument into a private email exchange. When things get to the point where people are taking things personally and firing shots back and forth, that's enough. I won't have it here.

..............

How many I sell - Look at my pictures, adn tell me how many rods you see with REd in them. All teh REd rods are mine, except 1. Most of the others are for other fishermen. If I wanted to sell a ton of rods, I would. I would have to eliminate doing what I love and turn this into a job.

Good thing you didn't name Dale's book Custom Rod Thread Craft, that doesn't have a good ring to it. Call them what you want, teh entire rest of the poulation of the Earth now and in past generations calls a Painter an artist.

Fred, taking a hit - I won't let people disrespect what the Rod Building Artists do. I have no problem and understand why people build rods teh way tehy do. But for someoen who cant' do something to make a claim that tehy can if they wanted to, as if it's some sort of monkey trick - well that ain't gonna happen. I'm not alone on this, I'm just the one stupid enough to say something.

:) TGIF

I love this board! I find myself agreeing with a lot of what I'm reading. I will say this - there is a long-time builder in SE MN (some of you would know his name) that has people asking to buy his personal rods at boat ramps- based on looks alone!

I live in a vacation area and I have seen some of what Billy is talking about - folks with very nice rigs loaded with electronics, eyes glued to the depth finder as they drive their boat right up on a rock bar. True story - two friends and I were jig worming for bass on a local lake. A boat with two folks came by close. They were in a nice rig, but were trolling for who-knows what with about 300' of mono out. After they were well past us one of my friends (class clown type) felt something unusual on his line. He pulled up to find that he had hooked the line of one of the long-liners. He looked at us and grinned, then gave the line two powerful jerks of about 6 feet each, then he bit the line off and tossed it back in the water. About 500 yards later the person dragging the empty line realized something was wrong. These are the types that might pay for a wrap.

There are tournaments here, and I see high-dollar rods lying in the bed of pick-ups, crammed into SUVs, etc. They get picked up six or ten at a time and handed butt first into a boat (held by the upper 1/4 and bent past 90 deg) and then tossed on the deck. These guys don't care about fancy wraps. Many of them have colored grip tape covering all the cork.

Personally, I really want to keep practicing thread work and I hope to try weaving. Maybe someday someone will ask me to build a fancy looking rod and will opt for the cheapest blank available as long as it is a pretty color. Maybe they will want colored guides, a custom-turned exotic grip and lots of pretty thread work. I think it is good to practice these things, even if most people don't want to pay for it now.