Billy,

I can't argue with that at all - I know a lot of fly fishermen who tell me that they are above nymphing and only fish dry flies because "it's the more sporting way to fish." Then you see them try to fish a nymph or wet and understand what it is that they're really saying, "I don't really have the skill to fish nymphs." I have no doubt that it's the same with many guys who say they just don't want to do any decorative rod work of any kind - they may not really know how.

But I'd add one more thing - a really high performance fishing rod isn't exactly a "plane jane" type of thing at all. Out of 10 plane janes, you might only find one of them that has really had any attention paid to good design and execution, fine fit and finish, and that is actually a better fishing tool. And that's not an easy thing to accomplish. Those builders who can and do, have invested a lot of time in gaining the knowledge and experience to build what amounts to a superior fishing tool. No one can downplay that.

I'm not taking sides on any argument pro or con threadwork. I've probably done as much decorative threadwork as anyone around and consider myself very competent at it. But I never found much of a market for it in a broad sales perspective. It is worth remembering that there are fishermen who do appreciate it and will pay for it, they're just smaller in number.

.............

People from NYC who have goatees and Pink Shoes would never even get to the door of Beantown's Cheers! MJ take him to the "Golden Bannana" and let him pick his wrap of choice!

Swamp Boyz - Dime a Duzen Money Makers - Deci;les of Jesse's Black on Black 15 Minute Tangle Wrap!

"Function guys dime a dozen" - here's what I was getting at - anyone even a beginner can go out and buy the top of the line lightest, most responsive blank from their favorite company. They can buy teh lightest Ti or Recoils, an ECS seat, short cork for a split grip. Wrap teh rod with very few wraps, and only use the lightest coat of finish. Tha rod would be every bit more functional than any factory rod. GRanted, tehy would have to place the guides properly, and get balance & grip lengths right. Yes, guys go further than that using ultra small guides, and unique materials for arbors, adn trimming up teh reel seat.

Nobody, or very few will be able to sit down and do a 6" Dragon weave in all metallic on their first try. Or a red eyed dragon, or a purple MOther & son team of dragons.

Very few will actually build a really good performing rod on their first try either. Give a first time cook the best ingredients and he still may not be able to make something that most of us would want to eat.

I know guys who build nice performing rods who couldn't crosswrap or weave to save their lives. I also know some excellent thread artists who build terrible fishing rods from a standpoint of pure function. There are all sorts out there.

I think what Lawrence was wanting to know, was whether or not he was experiencing something unusual in that not many guys were being sold by his threadwork, or were actually wanting it on their rods. It's not unusual and I think most new builders should be prepared to understand that.


.................

I may really be off base here but the original question seems to be getting lost and we seem to be choosing up sides. One of those my way is better than your way type of thing. I guess it must be human nature and seem to be quite prevailent in Custom Rod building. It is a shame we can just understand there are many facets of this craft and none is any better than the other. Jesse I am glad that you are happy with your claim to fame handles and hozels. I tried to view them on the Photo site but couldnt find any. It would be nice to see them(I an not being a smart aleck either). It is maybe an over statement that every rod builder does thread work(unless you are just referring to guide wrapping) because as far as the art thread work you can see just in this post that your statment is not necessarily accurate. (at least as thread art goes). I am just spit balling here but I think the emphasis on rodbuilding should be mostly supportive of each others "schtick". I appreciate the thread work of Billy and the Nerbs, as much as the weaving of Jimmy U and Hiro, as much as the wood work of Rich Gassman and Mark B., as much as the bamboo work of Art Parramore, as much as Tiger wrapping of Scott T., Marbling of Randy and Mike,as much as the EVA work of Bernie Cohen and Billy V., Oh @#$%& I could go on ad-nauseum. Bottom line is instead of dividing int ranks maybe we should spend more time supporting and congratulating each other for our efforts and experiences.

Now to Answer Larrys Questions:
Yes I have run into the same sorts of customers who are not willing or not interested in art work. So I build them the best Plain Jane I can and sometimes on future purchases have gotten to do some artwork too.
Yes a lot of my customers like crosswraps but over the years have begun to prefer weaves. Also because Long Rang Fishing Rods have gotten longer and longer foregrips the is less room to do long cross wraps (out here called Diamond Wraps) Hence and even higher call for weaving for those wanting artwork.
No they dont pay a little extra for thee artwork, The pat a LOT extra for it. Though still not squat for the hours involved. Usually between 10 to 20 bucks an hour is the norm. For that I could start at Mc Donalds or on the high end be a Manager at Mc Donalds.

Larry if I can give you any advice from my end of things it would be to take the work you can and charge a fair price for CUSTOM Crafting a rod(that is were the best money is made any way). Dont get discouraged about the thread art end of things. Whenever you meet with a potential client have some artistic stuff in plain view. Remember "you cant make a horse drink but you can lead him to water and make him thirsty" - there I go again with the OLD time sayings.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2007 03:04PM by James(Doc) Labanowski.

Doc I do not think anyone is choosing sides here. Just expressing different points of view and all of them valid. The knock down, drag out arguments and side choosing seems to be relegated to the organized clubs. After all they tend to attract that kind of contingent. Here in the great big world of rod building I really do not see that sort of thing going on much.

I can do pretty decent diamonds and have done a few scale wraps that turned out nice. If I were to place a value of even $100 on them I do not think I would sell many. My customers are business owners, some of them rather well to do and they could afford it if they wanted it. But most just want a nice rod that fits them and does what they want it to do. Now do not get me wrong, they will not accept a junker, thrown together by any means. They expect nice work and some of them appreciate some feathers or woodwork or their names inscribed on the rod. But beyond that they do not seem interested in much additional thread work. This is my experience so far and the reason that I push weight reduction, casting performance and comfortable handles as my sales tools. It seems to work for me. My recommendation for Lawrence is that if thread art is not selling rods for him, then he should focus on something else that might.

One thought on the topic if you are serious about getting into the business the more you know and can do the more sales you will make, those limited as to what they are capable of doing will eventually loose some business to others who can do what a customer wants so I would suggest developing as many skills as possible, and making a high performance rod is a skill also
John

I'll add a comment from who's a relative novice (me), especially compared to many guys here. Maybe it'll add something to the conversation.

I don't sell rods, but nevertheless I couldn't care less about thread art. It's probably because I'm still closer to the beginning of the learning curve -- maybe 20 rods or so -- but how a rod looks just doesn't seem important at all to me. How it fishes -- that's another story. I am doggedly trying to get to the point where I can say that I have built a rod from which I have squeezed out every possible bit of performance. I've gotten close -- and I get closer with each rod I complete -- but I haven't quite gotten there yet. The rods perform great, but I still feel they could be better. And I will not care about making a rod beautiful until I've gotten a grasp of the performance end of rodbuilding.

I see the articles in Rodmaker, and am truly amazed at some of the stuff that guys are able to do. 3D wraps, decorative weaves, inlaid reel seats -- the stuff blows my mind. But I look at this stuff the way that I'd look at a painting on a wall -- I'm not going to be doing that stuff anytime soon, so it doesn't seem especially relevant to me.

I'm building these things for myself (and a few family members and friends), for me to fish with, and take great pride in doing the best I can with them. But if I don't care about prettying them up -- and I'm the one who puts all the work into them -- how am I supposed to expect the guy on the street to feel differently?

I feel Tom probably said it best: decorative thread wraps matter a lot more to rodbuilders than they do to fishermen. But that's just my 2 cents.

Most of the comments on this thread have been by rod builders, who have been building rods for more than a week and have many hours and years of thread work, weaving and now marbleizing to back up their statements. Each one has a special technic an method to make them faster at doing what they do best. I guess what I am saying is find patterns and practice, practice and practice some more.
After awhile you can and well develop faster methods and be able to modif, your patterns. I can remember when I did my first chevron, it took me 3 hours now I can do one in less than 15 minutes start to finish, trim bands and all. A good way to sell fancy wraps is to have some on display rods with different patterns. To show customers what you are capable of doing. Not everyone wants fancy patterns, they are looking for a well-designed rod that fishes the way they want. They are also looking at details and craftsmanship. I have a friend who cannot or well not build a rod. He comes over and inspects my workmanship every time I complete a new rod. This man has an eye for minute details. I believe this is what draw in customers in, paying attention to the smallest of details.
Just my 2 cents
Good Wraps Bob

Chris I think Lawrence question was ment on the business end of rod designing, I think he wants to know how to draw more customers in to the thread art side,.
Good Wraps Bob

Yeah Chris,,,, I'm in a boat near yours I think. Everyone has their own little dingy though.

I actually make a few token efforts to the artistic side, but I'm more mechanic than artist and rather like pushing the technology to do some different (oddball?) things. With a big hammer usually :-)

Somewhere down the line, I'll probably do some pseudo-retirement thing building and fixing rods, and repaining, blueprinting and hopping up reels. So I notice what people are saying: generally eye candy attracts but isn't a core seller. It works primarily as advertising.

And it rather makes sense that everyone is broken off into many little niches. If they weren't, that would say there's a decent common market, and it would only be a matter of time before that market is targeted by mass manufacturing. There's something to be said for doing it your way versus following the crowd.

The fisherman is always right..if they dont want thread art... dont give it to them. Just build them the best possible rod you can within their budget and make ends meet for yourself.

It @#$%&...but its the way it is.

You'll get the guys and gals that desire your crosswraps (great for you cause you ENJOY doing that) but make sure you get compensated for it based on their budget of course.

Regardless of your quandry...be sure to enjoy what you do, even the plain jane stuff.

my 2 cents..whatever

I haven't been building rods for very long. I build nothing but fresh water, mainly for Bass fishermen.
At the moment I am 11 rods behind. What I have found that impresses the Bass fishermen the most are all the questions I ask them, measuring their arm for grips,etc. Most impressive I think is how I install the guides, with the static load test , the new concept placement, etc. A customer said the other day," No one at the Bass Pro Shop ask me anything." These are the things that are drawing in business for me. As everyone has stated; It is not the fancy thread work . These Bass fishermen want "stealth" as Bill said. Something else I think is a big draw is a ramp instead of a chunk of cork for a fore grip. I was surprised at the response. My last 3 builds have had an epoxy ramp. All Bass fishermen palm the reel while working a bait. With the ramp they can have their fingers touching the rod blank instead of cork, they really like the feel of it.
Ok. I will quit , just my .02 .

My Two Cents....I have read all these threads at least twice and am amazed...Billy V is right in many ways and wrong in others..sorry Billy but I for one took up rod building as a hobby and to have that better fishing rod in my hands, not because I wanted a a piece of art work. Granted I did go on and did cross wraps etc, yet number one was always to have it fish good. I never seen a cross wrap book come out in Gene Bullards name as Dale Clemens has done, but Dale was a fishing rod builder number one and a artist later and never did he give up the "better fishing rod" idea
that I know of. Billy you are one dang fine artist and I love your book and reading your comments but please don't bad knock the people you call
"function guys" I think you were there performing a "function" at one time or the other and besides I don't think they serve up the beverage at Cheers
that I would care to imbide in.
My decision was to give the customer what he wanted to put into his hands to fish with at a fair price and not sell him something he really never wanted in the first place. I always asked if they wanted some sort of butt wrap and gave it to him at no charge...then again I do it for the love of it and not the money and never expected to make a living at it.

Tight Lines
Tight Wraps
Fishin'Stix by Fred

The tendency toward lack of crosswraps is strongly re-inforced by the major high end factory rods. What the fisherman knows is that he can get a crosswrap of sorts on a $20 Wally World special, but if you buy a Loomis, St.Croix, or Lamiglas rod it is plain jane. What my customers want (and what everyone wants) is their name on the rod and many want a decorative decal of the fish for which the rod is intended. I've thought about learning cross-wraps, but never have because no one wants to pay for them. For the price, a couple of decals and some decorative multi-color regular wraps surronding them is hard to beat. Tom has a beautiful buttwrap (not crosswrap) that he can do in about 5 minutes. You really have to have very high end clientele to sell crosswraps and weaves. In fact, I've found that I'm more likely to get a request for feather inlays in the butt area as these are not available from anyone except a custom rodbuilder and don't require nearly the time or effort of a crosswrap. Just my 2 cents worth. I do greatly admire the workmanship of Billy, Doc, Tom and the rest, its just not commercially viable for me.

Fred, what makes you think the Artists posting here aren't doing the same amount of experimentation & testing for functionality as they are on Art? A lot of people lose sight of that - the guys I know DO place funtionality first and foremost, but many on this site are blinded by purple & pink to realize this & refuse to acknowledge it. People think that because tehre are underwraps and butt wraps with 14 coats of finish that these rods are NOT functional...quite the contrary - if you knew the conditions the rods were fished & the weight of the rods, you'll see why performance isn't decreased as much as some make out to be. THing is many only build FW rods so they don't understand why teh ARtists...who all seem to be SW fishermen build rods teh way they do.

Gotta agree with that, Billy. The larger, heavier rods that are built on support LOTS of space for burgeoning artists! The little additional weight of the art does little to affect these rods. I would believe there are fewer artists (percentage-wise) who don't go function first than there are in the regular building community. To get to that level, you have to start somewhere and work up. Surely function would likely come in somewhere along that path in most cases, especially in today's world of the internet and sharing of information.

With me, it's the walleye world (small diameter rods) and the person wanting the rod built rules and each one is different. Some want plain Jane, some want Van Gogh. Doesn't matter, they get what they want to the best of my abilities on both flamboyance and function... unless I'm heavily into the PBR...

Putter
Williston, ND

Billy,
I think that you are confusing a craft and art. Something that anyone with reasonable manual dexterity, patience and practice can do cannot be classified as art.
Plus I think that your comments demonstrate the facts that you are young and have very limited fishing experience, do not really build that many rods, have only been doing it a few years and therefore still have a lot to learn.

I agree with Randy and Billy. I think the original question was How does one entice a customer in to a decorative wrap. Here in Washington most decorative rods are off shore rods. The amount of thread work and extra finish well not screw up a rods function. As for other rods can you imagine a cross wrap on a fly or trout rod. As for enticing a customer to purchase a weave, thread art, feather work or marbleizing. You have to have these displayed on rods and let the workmanship sell its self.
Just my 8 cents
Good Wrap Bob

Emory you are pulling their chain. You have been building rods before there was dirt. Hey how is my spelling? Next I well work on punctuation.:))
Good Wraps Bob