I'm a bit confused lately. I started building rods for myself a few years ago. I caught the crosswrap bug. Started off learning from Tom's book and the pictorial on crosswrapping he showed. Then bought a copy of the Clemens Thread Art book off @#$%& and practiced some more. Over the last couple years I've gotten very decent at all sorts of crosswraps and put them on every rod I build for myself. I think they really highlight the rods and personalize them to the individual.

So more and more guys around here starting noticing the rods I fish with and have asked me to build them one. I guess this is how most custom rod businesses get off the ground. I'm happy that business is starting to take off, but in talking to customers and taking a few orders I am noticing one thing that I don't understand----------------------Nobody wants any sort of decorative crosswrap on their new rods!

I'm not pricing them very high. Just fifty bucks for a closed crosswrap. That can't be too much for the time it takes me to do it. I even offered to do one for free on a guy's rods that ordered top of the line everything on them. Just sort of a thank you to him. But he declined and said he could do without the 'artwork.'

I put a lot of time into learning how to do these things and have come up with what I think are pretty good looking wraps. But fishermen don't seem interested in them. Do any of you run into the same sort of customers? Do your customers like crosswraps? Do they order them and are they willing to pay a little extra for them? My guys around here just seem to want fishing rods and don't really care about how they look as far as any decorative thread stuff goes. I'm a little disappointed. I thought crosswrapping would be something that would help set their new rods apart from the masses. They don't seem to care.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2007 09:10AM by Lawrence Munsinger.

HI LAWRENCE,

Don't be too worried about the thread art.
I stopped doing it for customers in the early 1980s , one because of cost, the second reason was the customer wanted a good fishing tool. Not a piece of art work. The people would rather put the money into top line blanks and components and a rod that fitted them and their fishing style or preference.

If you are building this type of rod then I believe you are a custom builder.

Thread art is great and I love it along with marbling and feather inlays etc, but most of your customers will want a fishing tool and that is obviously what you are supplying.

Good luck with it,
Paul

I fish therefore I am.
www.hookeduprods.com

Rods for Sale To Public - In most cases you will find that serious fishermen want fishing rods without art. Most bass fishermen will head in the opposite direction and they actually want rods with absolutely no glitz or bright colors - stealth is their choice. Added value for form and function is more justifyable in their mind before aesthetics generally. People buying gift rods for someone else may see this a little differently. Theme rods built with specific colors and personalization by name decal or weave will typically attract more dollar bills than cross wraps.

100% of the thread art that I do is on a rod that is a GIFT , and thus, probably not going to be fished. It is built for a sentimental piece right from the get go..

Only a few have their name woven in , but that is it, and they too are far and few between. And like you, I sometimes offer it as a "thank you", but is refused.

There's a way to fix this but it will reduce the amount of customers you have, but will allow you to buidl rods YOU ENJOY building. If you are building rods as a full time business, this won't work, only if you build because you TRULY enjoy building an "artsy" rod adn could care less about making money (which is condraticdory based on what I'm about to say).

First, you have to be really good at what you do decoratively, or be able to talk yourself up to enough people so you build your reputation up. THt $50 for a closed wrap...throw that out the window as you are cheapening yourself and your work (provided it is good) to try and get a sale. WHen people ask you to build a plain rod, tell them that you really dont' build rods plain, adn quote them at a price substantially higher than what you are charging now. Tell them that price includes a decoartive wrap becaue that is waht you specialize in and what you prefer to build. If you really want to make a sale and wrap a plain rod, take $50 off your inflated price.

What happens is you'll eitehr be blown off by the high price, or guys will recognize you ARE ABLE to do quality work, and you are basically "doing them a favor" so they won't be put off by the higher price. If someone does want a decorative wrap, you'll be compensated for your time and skill to a greater degree than a flat $50 upcharge. People do not like the wrod "upcharge", or it will cost moe for this and that. Tehy like hering it will cost less though.

Again, if you are trying to make a lot of rods for people, this won't work. YOu'll end up making a lot less but making more...and spending more time than a plain jane. Don't do artwork for the money aspect, becasue it's REALLY difficult to do. You might be able to charge double or even triple teh price over a plain jane custom rod, but sepnd 5-6 times as much time, decreasing the $ per hour.

You’re discovering what most of us who have been at this for a long time discovered long ago - namely that custom thread art is a bigger deal to rod builders than it is to fishermen.

In the 3-part series we did in RodMaker on “Pricing Custom Rods,” I solicited pricing information from a wide variety of rod builders in different areas around the Country. I also solicited direct information from each on what aspects of their rods fishermen were most interested in and willing to pay for. In nearly all cases, decorative thread work came out on the bottom. So, no, you're not experiencing something unique to just you or your area.

I find this holds true even among the rod builders themselves. In past issues of RodMaker where we’ve run an article on crosswrapping or weaving, I’ll get maybe 25 to 30 letters and emails on the topic. When I run articles more geared towards enhancing the performance aspects of custom rods, I’ll get well over 200 or so. The recent article on ergonomics has already generated over 350 letters and emails with questions and comments and we’re barely a few weeks out from the article first appearing. The fact is, decorative thread work does not carry the interest that other aspects of rod building do, neither with fishermen nor with custom rod builders. So what you’re experiencing is likely the norm for most rod builders.

But don’t get yourself down in the dumps over this. Just understand that most fishermen who buy custom rods do so in order to get better performance or a better personal fit, than what they can get in a commercially made rod. Very few buy custom rods just so they can have some additional threadwork on their rods and you aren’t likely to sell many just by making crosswraps a selling point - you need to focus on the performance aspects of custom rods in order to land a good number of sales. Of course, when that rare fisherman comes along who does want some personalized and intricate threadwork on his rod, and is willing to pay for it, you’ll be able to deliver it. By knowing how to do it, you’re a more well rounded rod builder so your time learning to do it has not been wasted. And on any sample rods you build, you should include it. It is a selling point (speaks to your ability), even if the customers don't want it on their rods.

By the way, the series on Pricing Custom Rods (Volume 8 #’s 3, 4 and 5) was pretty detailed and contained information on how to charge, what other builders around the Country are charging for various rod types, and those performance and cosmetic enhancements that fishermen seem most willing to pay for. There is a ton of information in there for anyone who ever wondered if they were charging too much, or too little, including sample pricing charts for various rod types by builders from a wide demographic.

...................

Most people think a butt wrap is some fancy tape and they are amazed (for a second or two) when I tell them to look close and see that those are individual threads carefully placed and that it takes many hours to do it.

Go to any store that sells rods. It is interesting that many are showing up with split grips and graphics that look like butt wraps - for $29.99. It is much harder to find a "stealth" rod. Soon we might be seeing Tiger/Hollo Wraps at wally world done with a stick-on graphic. A matte finish blank with a good handle and good guides is what many people want.

I've only noticed rod art on boat rods and some delicate stuff on fly rods. Interesting that they are the extremes. We've a fishing club out here in the Bay Area with around 13k members that covers salt and fresh, over a large area. At best, 5% have custom rods, and of them I doubt there is much decor. Of the ones have seen, there was no added decor anyway. Some talk on custom rods comes up occassionally on the club board, but never have I seen added art brought into it, beyond boat and owner names. Spartan and utilitarian tools that work good for specific environs is the normal discussion.

Highest concentration of rod art I've seen was boat rods in SoCal. If you see rod art, the chances are very good the guy built his own rod, and he is always very proud of it.

We also found years ago that most serious fishermen, especially Bass anglers, want a plain lokking rod that is done with high tech materials.
One thing we hear all the time is they "like the feel" of a certain rod.
It seems like Saltwater fishermen seem to like "custom" thread work by far over Freshwater anglers.
One thing in our area has always been price.
We are seeing other custom builders doing more quick things, like fish decals to add some special touches to a rod.
The person's name is always important, and if it is a "spec rod" built and on display, the "custom made" with builders name or initials and date are also very important.
It has been discussed earlier what is truly "custom", but the customer usually looks at the inscription and the fact that is one of a kind.
To that person it is "custom"
If we build just to look like a fancier factory rod, then I question if we are "custom building".
Every improvement I can think of on factory rods (other than blank materials) seems to have started with someone's custom rod.
So we keep a few built with fancy butt wraps for people to see, but most requests are for "plain" wraps.



Best wishes,
Ron Schneider
Schneider's Rod Shop
Mountain Home, Arkansas
[www.schneidersrods.com]
mtnron40@yahoo.com
870-424-3381

I am amazed at the response you have had since I answered your original post.

I hope you see the point of what I put so poorly, the quality of the rod and it"s performance is what the customer wants from you. Tom's long winded post says it better but iI do believe, we as custom builders , strive to build a better tool.
Paul


I fish therefore I am.
www.hookeduprods.com

Something popped into my mind just now - after I built my first two rods, most of my fishing buddies admired the diamond wraps I had done on them. Nobody asked about having me build them one, however.

A few months went by and one day I was fishing with a guy and he kept looking back at me each time I would cast. I asked him if something was wrong. He said that he noticed that my rod didn't seem to make any noise when I cast, at least not like his did. The line sort of whispered on the way out on my rod, while his made a "FWappppppppppppppppppppppppppppp" sound on every cast. The smoothness and ease of the casts my rod made impressed him to no end. At the end of the day he asked me to build him one. I told him that it would cost him $100. He didn't bat an eye. And this was in 1978 when a $100 fishing rod was a pretty expensive fishing rod.

I did add a diamond wrap to his rod, but I doubt he would have cared one way or the other. He just wanted that casting "smoothness" that my rod had.




.........................

BRAVO Tom.
In 1970 I got my first paid build , because I was fishing with a friend.

He was surprised I could outcast him even though we were both using the same lures for salmon.

He asked me to build a rod exactly the same as what I had.

My world has been different since.

Paul

I fish therefore I am.
www.hookeduprods.com

I started having more people request as little thread and epoxy as possible, leave off the labels, lightest guides, nothing to flash or standout, zero to attract attention from "hole jumpers", etc. Best of all, they would pair those requests with ones for the very best guides, blanks and methods. This type of build leaves much more profit than any other.

Those occasionally "decorative" sales that I get are always "low price" personalized gifts with requests like putting a name on it, team colors, sparkly stuff, inexpensive guides, no name blanks, etc. Those rods leave me significantly less profit yet much more work.

So ... I actually started to "specialize" in the dark side - everything possible to please those Darth Vader fans. My profits are up, existing customer are specifically returning for quality AND the "stealth" look, my referrals are up, etc. Not to mention that this actually leaves my products more clearly defined from the bulk imports at Wally World and tackle shops and once again with greater ease.

I have always thought it a shame, however, that so many fishermen will take really nice custom threadwork and lump it in with the run of mill stuff you find on commercially made rods - most of that being just diamond wound braid or simple 4 pass diamonds or chevrons. But they don't know what's involved and thus aren't able to discern the difference.

................

You know everything everyone has said already is TRUE. I have had a bit of a different chain of events that lead to my opening my custom rod business. I would say nearly all my business originated in one of the following ways. The first rods I ever sold were after going on a trip and people seeing my art work and saying but do they catch fish. The answer was not only yes (an lots of them) but they also cast and handled better. I would sell rods to some of theses people and they in turn would go out and like circumstances would happen to the and they would send people on to me. My first rods sold as a result of doing sport fishing shows were because people agan noticed my artwork, then stopped to inquire what else custom rods were about. Again that was like a pebble in the lake type effect, for every one I sold I would sell the 3 or 4 others that were friends or aquaintences. Maybe some of this effect is a west coast mentality of beating the Jones', I dont know. I just know that My artwork was directly responsible for my success. I will note that when I was in Saratoga Springs, NY that the art attracted them but they werent as interested in paying for it. In actuality there is no reason both art and function cant co exist. Single overwraps can have inlays and trim, Crosswraps and weaves have little or now effect on function and sensitivity, Tiger wraps fit great in split grip areas with little overall change in the function. Basically that is what makes custom rodbuilding sooo unique. There are different needs and desires in every area ofthe country. I do agree the profit margin is much greater building plain janes but there is a healthy market in some areas for the rods with artsy stuff. It sure has worked for me and many others out here in California. Once again JMHO

Tell you what is odd I do repairs for a number of shops and it is surprising how many people will buy an inexpensive rod and then request a butt wrap put on them the persons name etc usually for a gift. Good money
John

I dont know....I don't personally want a wrap on an inshore rod or a flyrod most of the time, and definately not anything over 6 inches...Offshore rods, and surf rods make great canidates for wraps....Just dont like them on every application....Just my opinion....

As you have already read most rod builders are in agreement about thread art. When I was in business and it came to pricing thread art. I would try and steer my customers to a better quality product. I told them unless you wanted to impress your lawyer or doctor what good was a fancy wrap. Look at fly fishermen. Their rod are vary plain looking. But if you are inclined to wraps find a wrap pattern you can do quickly, learn how to do multiple thread wraps (this is labor saving). Personally I would learn the art of thread weaving and weave names. You also might try learning how to Marbleize
Just my 2 cents
Good Wraps Bob

I found out a long time ago that you can spend hours and hours on thread work and NO ONE wants to pay for it. That is why I developed my "FANCY WRAP" in 1990 and don't do anything else unless I'm coping something special for someone, it takes about 10-15 minutes and looks great. Time is money if you are in business. My claim to fame is my incapsulated grips and hozels, every rod builder does threadwork but my grips and hozels make mine stand out as something really special as very few rodbuilders have even tried it, much less do it on a regular basis. Many fishermen don't even notice the thread work but they sure notice the grips and hozels. Jesse

One thing I have found is a lot of builder's who say nay to fly rods and tack on teh old reliable, "I can do it but...etc" - are the ones who can't do it and look to knock those that do partake in some form of Rod Art (thread, feather, etc). One thing which stands out to me is that you seem to remember the names of builders who are "art majors" in Rod Building, while the function guys are a dime a dozen and wouldn't be allowed in Cheers bar ("where everybody knows your name," lol) with the exception of a small handful.

You have a decision to make - do you want to make money building, or do you enjoy artsying up rods and expressing yourself on rod blanks?