I'm working on a KR concept guide train using a taller choke guide for a spinning rod I'm building. As was suggested in another thread where i asked questions about this type of set up, I place the 1st reduction guide, and the taller choke guide in the positions the KR software calls for them to be placed if using a standard KR guide train, where a KB would be the choke guide. I then placed the two remaining reduction train guides by making them visually bullseye with the 1st reduction train guide, and the choke guide. I then ran line from the reel through the 4 guides, pinching the line against the spool lip on the bottom of the spool, to see if the line was perfectly straight, and it was. Success !!!

What I want to question, is the spacing of the guides. Because the heights of the 3rd reduction guide and the choke guide is so different between the 2 set ups, I have some spacing that I'm afraid may be too far apart, and spacing that may be too close. So I'll share the spacing I have with the guide train as it is described above. I'm calling the stripper, the first reduction guide.

First to second reduction guide, 10.875" Second to third reduction guide, 6.062" Third reduction guide to tall choke guide, 4.937". Total length 21.874"

For comparisons sake, the spacing the KR software gives for the standard KR guide train is as follows,

First to second reduction guide 8.91" Second to third reduction guide 6.75" Third reduction guide to choke guide 6.31" Total length 21.9"

While I understand the height differences between the last two guides in each set up will change the spacing of the guides so they can bullseye, a 2" difference in spacing when you compare the two set ups, between the first and second reduction guide seems like a lot. And the 1.375" closer spacing between the third reduction guide and the choke guide, seem like it may be a little short. Or ..... because the guides bullseye visually and with line running through them, should I be fine. So basically what I guess I'm looking for, is comments on whether it would work as set up, or if there are some things I can try to change it up a bit.

I will say that one question has been constantly on my mind about the taller choke guide set up. And that is placing the taller choke guide, where the KB would normally go. If the choke point on a spinning rod is where the imaginary straight line from the spool shaft intersects with the rod blank, then keeping a straight line through a taller choke guide, is going to push the intersection of the straight line and the rod blank, further down the blank. I hope what I'm saying makes sense.

When I take the line from the reel through the 4 guides and continue a straight line to where the line intersects the rod blank, it's 4.25" further down the blank.

This is my thinking based on the guide spacing I have. My thinking is with the actual choke point of the rod in mind ......, moving the taller choke guide in from where the KR software calls out the choke guide in a standard KR guide train, will bring my spacing between the first and second reduction train, and keep the remaining guides spaced the same, while not changing where the straight line from reel to rod blank intersect.

Comments? Suggestions?

I have a feeling I may have to actually wrap the guides on the rod and go out and full cast it, before I can be absolutely sure.

Tape the guides on and go cast it.

Spencer, I appreciate the response. And I thought of that. But the last time I tried to really full cast a rod with the guides taped on, it didn't turn out well. That's why I said that I may have to actually wrap the guides so I can try making so really long casts.

One nice thing ..... since it would just be for test casting purposes, I won't have to be super careful about all the stuff you'd normally be careful with while wrapping guides.

Just place the reduction guides where the software says, then put the reduction guides where the stress test says, and go with it. All the test casting will not yield any measurable improvements. I don't test cast spin any more.

Follow the simple instructions from Fuji… pages 1 and 2.

[www.guidesnblanks.com]

Which KR guides are you using? What’s your distance from the butt guide to the tip top? Don’t be afraid to to push the choke guide (high belly guide) further out. Pushing the choke out a little may make it easier to get the line you want. Fuji calculates the reduction train (RT) length by multiplying the distance from the butt guide to tip by approximately 0.45. The KR GPS uses a multiplier of approximately 0.42. So, there is some slop concerning RT length.
Norm

So, just my thought process… I think pushing the belly guide further down the blank would defeat the purpose of going with micro guides on a spinning rod. The KR concept is about reducing/funneling the spinning coils down to the running guides as quickly/efficiently as you can so the line can be “flattened” by the time it goes through the running guides. I don’t know why it would be advantageous to prolong the funnel and shorten the flatter running guides.

I have watched my line during casts and the line is definitely throwing coils and fighting, but getting reduced, through the reduction guides. Once it hits the belly guide, it is flat and remains that way - I assume that also means minimal resistance the rest of the way. There is a lot of “fight” going through the reduction guides, and I’m not sure I want that prolonged. The advantage of the micro running guides (to my brain anyway), is lower mass and better sensitivity (than guides that are farther away from the blank). Of course, this is just my theory, but my spinning rods have casted better since going to the KR concept, and definitely more sensitive with less mass from guides on the rod.

Michael Danek, I'm not using the guide sizes that the KR software calls out for a standard KR guide train. I'm using the guide sizes recommended for a KR guide train using a taller choke guide. The third reduction guide and the choke guide have different heights than the guides in a standard KR guide train. If I place them where they're called out to go using the measurements for a standard KR guide train, the guides aren't even close to bullseye. When I do a standard KR set up, I do exactly what you suggested. This isn't a standard set up, But thanks for your input anyway.

Michael Tarr, I used the illustration for the tall choke guide in that link, as well as Norman's suggestions, which matched those for the tall choke guide in that illustration, to space the guides. The first set of spacings I listed above are for the guides in the positions illustrated for the tall choke guide. I set their spacing by visual bullseyes. Then checked for straight line by running line through them..

Norman the guides I'm using are 20H, 10H, 7M, 6L. Those sizes came from a link Josh Freeseman posted in the first post of this thread [www.rodbuilding.org]

As to your question of distance from butt guide to rod tip, that distance 52.25" Which gives me an RT of 23.512" using .45 as the multiplier, versus the 21.945" using .42 as the multiplier. The latter is the number the KR software calls for on a standard KR where a KB is the choke guide. Thank you for sharing what the KR software uses. That's something I had no idea about.

Now here is where a little confusion comes in. The guide sizes called out in the link Michael Tarr posted in this thread, are not the same size guides called out in the link that that Josh Freeseman posted in the thread I supplied a link to. In the link Michael Tarr posted here, they call out the guides as 20H, 10H, 6M, and 5.5L . I have a 6M and 5.5L here so I could substitute them for the 7m and 6L, And while the spacing would change compared to what I have now, the 6m and 5.5L are shorter which means the spacing would still be strange.

If I use the spacing they show for the 20H, 10H, 6M, and 5.5L taller choke guide in the link that Michael Tarr posted in this thread the reduction train would be 27.974" for a 7' rod.

Am I being too much of a stickler on where the KR software calls out the choke guide position on a standard KR guide train? Am I being too much of a stickler with having the guides visually bullseye? If I used braided line, I wouldn't be so concerned with the guides being bullseyed. But I don't, and I'm not going to. I'll be using 10# Tatsu on this rod, and I am thinking that bullseyes for the guides is probably more important with the stiffer line.

I may try the spacing they call out in the link that Michael posted in this thread.. But I converted them to inches, and I can tell by comparing them to the spacing I laid out in my opening thread, that the guides will not perfectly bullseye. I'm going to use them just to see how close they are to bullseye. And since I was curious ..... I did the NGC thing of aligning the reel's spool shaft with the edge of my kitchen counter top, and looked at where the counter top edge intersected the blank. It is way inside of where the KR software calls for the choke guide to be placed. 6" inside to be exact.

As I said above I am going to have to take this thing out and test cast it. Oh and I tried taping the guides on to see how sturdy they are. As before when I tried taping the guides on and tried casting hard. The tape ain't gonna cut it. I'm going to have to wrap them on.

Any additional thoughts you guys can share will be as greatly appreciated as the ones you've already offered.

Sorry, I don't even know what the objective of a "taller choke guide" is, or what a "taller choke guide" is. Does this mean a 4 guide reduction train? 20H, 10H, 7M, 6L, then what? Which guide is the "taller choke guide?" Can you help me understand this? thx

I agree that the bullseye is important, just don't think all these reduction guides make sense. I once built a rod with a two guide reduction train for my son and he's loved it, never even noticed. I expect 10 pound Tatsu, since it's such a magical FC (sarcasm alert!), will perform a lot like most 20 pound braids. Might be worth a try to test the Fuji software for 20 pound braid, which I think will be 20H, 10H, 5.5M.

David,
It seems to me, in Micheal Tarr's link to fuji, that if the first three choke guides are located the same distances from the reel, then the high profile belly guide would have to be a smaller distance (compared to low profile belly guide) from the 3rd choke guide in order to keep a straight line path through the three choke guides to the high profile belly guide, But here again, it might not make a noticable difference in passing the line and/or knots one uses.

Michael, the objective of the taller choke guide is to aid leader knots passing through the guides, and to aid with casting light lures with stiffer line. As far as a 4 guide reduction train goes. According to the KR software text, the choke guide is included in the reduction train. So even if a KB were the choke guide, it is considered as part of the reduction train. So in the 20H, 10H, 7M, 6L, the 6L is the choke guide. The 6L is taller than a KB 6, hence ..... taller choke guide. And I use 10 - 14 lb mono as the line when I input numbers into the KR software, and it calls out the guides that you mention

And as far as the sarcasm alert concerning the magical qualities of Tatsu ..... that's ok. I feel the same concerning the magical powers of TNF, so we're even.

Gary, you are exactly right. But here's what I'm dealing with, and I'm sure my wall of text in my first two posts is confusing. All of the literature and illustrations concerning the higher profile choke guide, call for it to be placed at the same position that a KB choke guide would be placed. That's what's making the spacing so goofy. It changes the angle to bullseye the taller choke guide with the stripper, Which affects the spacing of the 2nd reduction guide to get it to bullseye with the stripper and choke guide, which affects the spacing of the 3rd reduction guide to get it to bullseye with the other 3 guides.

Near the end of my first post I mentioned my thinking on how to get a better spacing. And this is with the idea of having all 4 of the guides, bullseye. Instead of pushing the taller choke guide closer to the tip, I bring it in closer to the reel. The current spacing I have between the stripper and 2nd reduction guide, which is the spacing that concerns me the most, would decrease. While the spacing between the 2nd and 3rd reduction guide would stay the same, as would the spacing between the 3rd reduction guide and the choke guide. It wouldn't have the choke guide at the choke position the KR software calls out, but ....as I mentioned near the and of my post before this one, the NGC straight line from the spool shaft method of determining the choke point, is exactly 6" inside of where the KR software calls the choke guide location. That's why I'm thinking bringing the choke guide in closer to the reel might be the better way of approaching it.

I don't want to mess with the position of the stripper. The KR software has called it to be placed 19.5" - 20" from the tip of the spool shaft. on every spinning rod I have built. They all cast great with 8# and under fluorocarbon line. But when I go up to 10# line, I notice a decrease in casting performance.

Instead of trying out this taller choke guide drive train, I've considered bumping up a 25K, 12H, 7M guide grouping, with a KB as the choke guide ...... that's until I weighed a 25H. A stainless steel frame, BC grey 25H with Alconite ring weighs 5.55 grams. The same guide type in a 20H weighs 3.96 grams. I could weigh an entire 25H, 12H, 7M guide train, but the difference between the 25H and 20H is enough to have me try and get this taller choke guide thing to work for me.

One really nice thing about this is I'm learning about spinning guide trains. Prior to trying to figure this out with a lot of help from my friends, I didn't have a clue about spinning rod guide trains. This is helping me learn. And a sincere thank you to all of you guys, for that.

Haven’t used the 20H,10H, and 7M, to a 6L choke, but have used the 25H,12H,and 7M a 6L choke on a 9’ heavy salmon rod. and it worked very well. I have used the 20H, 10H, 6M, and 5.5L combination on a few rods and it also worked very well. The Fuji guide placement link posted by Micheal Tarr shows a RT length for the 7’ rod using the 20H, 10H, 6M, 5.5L guide combination as 22.6” (57.5 cm) not 27.974”. Remember the 5.5L is the choke guide. For this 7’ rod the the length from butt guide to tip top is 49” (124.5 cm) so the multiplier is about 0.46. For your rod, using the same multiplier, the reduction train would be about 24” long (.46 X 52.25). As I’ve mentioned many times before the choke is a movable point, don’t be afraid to move it in or out a little to get the spacing you like. In general, for good progressive spacing, the fewer guides you use the longer the RT the more guides you use the shorter the RT. For example, if I were doing your rod and used 10 guides, the RT would be about 21.7” (55 cm). If using 9 guides the reduction train would be about 24” (61.5 cm). I think you can see based on the the Fuji publications and the KR GPS that the choke point is not set in stone, they are basically giving recommendations. It also appears the Fuji publications place the butt guide further out from the reel than the KR GPS does, or they use a longer handle, or both. I dislike spacing charts because you have no idea as to handle length or distance from butt guide to reel spool, or reel size, or even line type. So, the bottom line is that you have some flexibility in setting up your guide train. Come up with a couple of spacing options as see how they perform. I think you will be surprised at how well the various options will perform. When I was back in my experimentation mode, once I got one option with a layout I liked, I would quickly wrap the guides on with junk thread and test casted. Then rewrapped with the other option and retested. I don’t know how many times I did this. I learned a lot doing this.
Norm

Norman, thank you for the response, It is greatly appreciated. And you are absolutely right about my mess up with the length of the RT using the chart in the link Michael Tarr provided. I added in another spacing number.. I can't believe I didn't catch that. 4 guides only have 3 spaces between them. Duh me on that one for sure..

I went ahead and switched to the 6M , 5.5L guides and used the spacing in the link Michael provided. Like you said, RT length 22.6 or there abouts. And the guides bullseyed perfectly. So I thought heck, let's see how the 7M, 6L work at the same spacing. Dang near perfect bullseyes. Which I guess I shouldn't be surprised about considering there is only about 1mm in height difference between the respective guides I switched out.

One very nice thing is ...... with the spacing working out for the 7M, 6L guide sizes, I don't have to order 6M and 5.5L guides to make it work. It's only 2 guides, but they'd be Fuji T2's and with the set of Am Tac Ti guides I initially bought for this rod, I already have more than enough money wrapped up in titanium guides laying around. I don't need more. lol

I gotta say I'm a little more than a bit embarrassed with the mistake I made adding up the spacings on that chart. At work I'm kind of known as the guy to come to when numbers are involved. When I said the spacing in that chart would have the same results as the other spacings I had. I was basing it on the choke guide location at 27.974" from the butt guide. I don't know .....too many different numbers in my head I guess.

As far as guide spacing charts, I've only used prescribed guide spacing on spinning rod guide trains. And only for the reduction guides and choke guide. The first time I did any kind of NGC related as far as finding out where the choke point of a rod would be, has been in the last couple of nights. So like I said, I'm learning, which is a good thing. I now have the enthusiasm back that I initially had about trying this taller choke guide option. I gotta say, I was getting a bit discouraged.

I go by the measure twice cut once mantra, and it's served me well over the years. But when you measure twice and your measurement is wrong, it makes your cut wrong. Looks like I may need to start taking some Gingo biloba. That's the stuff that's supposed to help with mental acuity, right? lol

And finally, a very sincere thank you to all that have provided information and suggestions in this thread, and other threads I have asked for advice in for that matter. No doubt about it ..... this is the best rod building forum on the planet !!!

I don't mean to be a problem, but I am really having a hard time understanding what's going on here:

From the glossary:
Choke Guide
“Part of the "New Guide Concept System." The guide located at that point along the blank where a line drawn from the reel spool centerline will intersect the rod blank. “

 From Norman:
“based on the the Fuji publications and the KR GPS that the choke point is not set in stone, they are basically giving recommendations. “ Meaning choke guide, I believe.

From KR software:
“Third Reducer to Choke Guide: “ So KR as well as the New Guide Concept System both have a choke guide, and it's the first running guide?

From KR software regarding achieving a bullseye:
“As a final performance tweak, consider moving the choke guide slightly further out to obtain the position shown at left. “

From Gary: “ if the first three choke guides are located the same distances from the reel,  From Fuji (Michael Tarr) ” Set the 2nd and 3rd choke guide along the straight line. “ So here we are defining reduction guides as choke guides.

Since we are using a “taller choke guide” and the choke guide is, I believe the first running guide (??), then this build will be using the 6L as the running guides, right? If not 6L, what are the running guides? Or is the choke guide the last reduction guide as being sometimes defined in this string of posts?

“the objective of the taller choke guide is to aid leader knots passing through the guides “ I don't understand the need for leader knots when using 10 pound FC.

I don't mean to be critical, but I think there are a lot of conflicting objectives and definitions going on here.

Is it not true that if one has a number of guides of different ring centerline heights AND a bullseye requirement (straight line through the centers) that when one defines the end points of the string of guides he has defined the exact location of all the guides? The guides have to move until their centerline coincides with the “bullseye” line. And depending on the guide dimensions, the spacing may not be progressive. If “progressive spacing” is another requirement, I think the problem cannot be solved.

If I were building it I would try 3 reduction guides according to the KR software using 20 pound braid as the line in the software for one possible solution. This yields the 20-10-5.5 solution. Then do it with higher pound test until it uses the 25 butt guide. Try them both. Move the “choke guide” out a little with both and select the one that works best. I wouldn't worry about reduction guide weights.

David, please let us know where you end up. thanks,

I generally use 3 reduction guides and then runners.
Hence, the one and only choke guide is the 3rd guide.

Also, for virtually all of my spinning rods, I use a tall match guide for the first guide to avoid line slap.

Pretty simple and fool proof.

Best wishes.

HI Michael D,
When I refered to MIchael Tarr's Fuji link, I used the terms (choke guide) that Fuji was using in their picture on the link. Sorry.

Not a problem, Gary. I assumed that. I'm just pointing out the different definitions and conflicting objectives that seem to be present. I really got confused and had to wonder if all were talking about the same "choke" guide. Even Fuji is inconsistent.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2024 05:58AM by Michael Danek.

Personally, I use the definition from the glossary of what the choke guide is. There is another thread that hasn't had a post to it in a while, where it was said the choke guide is only the choke guide, if it's the smallest guide on the rod. That the choke guide by the definition in the glossary, should be the smallest guide on the rod. I don't personally buy that. To me it doesn't matter if the choke guide (the glossary definition) is the smallest guide. It's the position of the guide that makes it the choke guide.

As far as defining the choke guide being part of the reduction train. The KR concept software defines it as part of the reduction train. When the software gives you the "total reduction train length" it is including the spacing to the choke guide in the sum when you add up the spacings. Heck .... what if you use the same size choke guide and running guides as the ring size on the 3rd reduction guide? Then the choke guide isn't a reduction guide. LOL In the other thread it was said that confusion starts when people use different terminology. The terminology I go by is the definition of "choke guide" in the glossary. Choke guide is based on its' position on the rod. Period.

I don't know if Fuji considers the choke guide as a running guide. When the KR software says "Number of running guides" 5 the line is directly below the 20H, 10H, 5.5M. Does that mean the choke guide is 1 of those 5 running guides? Using the rod being discussed as an example. The blank is 86" long. There is no way I would only use 8 guides on an 86" long rod. I would have a minimum of 10 guides + tip top on it. And to be honest, I will most likely have 11 guides + tip top on it.

The taller choke guide I am using is a 6L. It is the choke guide because it is in the choke guide position. No I will not be using size 6 guides in any configuration as the running guides. I will be using a KB 5.5 right after the 6L, and then KT 5's the rest of the way out.

Then line you quoted, I believe it's from me ..... “the objective of the taller choke guide is to aid leader knots passing through the guides" You left this part out "and to aid with casting light lures with stiffer line" Those things were Fuji's objective behind the taller choke guide option. You're right, it's straight 10# fluorocarbon line, stiffer than even 20 lb braid, and I will be casting light lures with it. For me, "light" is a 4" Berkley Power Worm, with an 1/8 oz tungsten bullet weight.

The 10 - 14 lb mono line option that I input, gives the exact same results as the 20 - 30 lb braid option. In fact, the guide spacings are exactly the same. And the only way you can get the KR software to spit out a 25H, 12H, 5.5M is to go with a 4000 size reel, and 10 - 14 lb mono, or 14 - 17 lb mono. And I definitely worry about reduction guide weights.

I just weighed the two different guide groups in stainless steel BC grey, with Alconite rings. 20H, 10H, 5.5M ..... 5.659 grams. 25H, 12H, 5.5M 7.365 grams. The 25H at 5.55 grams weighs almost as much as the 20H guide grouping. Less than a 2 gram difference, but it's leveraged weight. And it's a difference you can feel. I know this because I can feel the difference in the weight of titanium guides versus the same size SS guides. And I don't mean feel as in sensitivity. I mean feel as in weight. Besides, I'd have to buy a 25H and 12H guide in black titanium with SIC ring to try that combination out.

Fuji 25H black titanium, SIC ring .... $56.55. Fuji 12H black titanium, SIC ring .... $21.99. I think I'll stick with the guides I already have. LOL

Anyhow ..... I will definitely post how it ends up. At the very least I know it's going to cast at least as well as a standard KR guide train would. If that's all the better it casts, then I will learned a lesson. But I think it's going to cast with 10# line, noticeably better. It's going to be a while before I find out though. I changed thread colors on a rod I built and I still need to finish up wrapping the last two guides on that one. Then I have to finish the rod I built on the MB 733 blank with the XO skeleton spinning grip. Then I'll get to this rod. So hopefully within a couple of weeks I'll be able to get it out to a local lake and see how it goes.

Once again thanks guys for all the help. Very much appreciated.

The choke guide is where the line is finally choked all the way down. Putting the choke guide somewhere other than the choke point on the blank does not make any sense to me. Either way you will not see any measurable difference by using a little taller choke guide. In effect the choke point is just being moved up to the next guide and it will not make a hill of beans difference. The ring size determines how easily a knot will pass not so much the height. Always remember that tiny changes only make tiny differences and most of the time they are so tiny you could not possibly measure them with any accuracy. Once you get to a certain point with any guide system these tiny changes may sound good on paper but in practice they just do not matter by enough to make any difference. You would be talking inches not feet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2024 09:44AM by Mike Ballard.

Mike Ballard wrote "Once you get to a certain point with any guide system these tiny changes may sound good on paper but in practice they just do not matter by enough to make any difference. You would be talking inches not feet."

IN: [www.rodbuilding.org] , Mike Ballard wrote: "Some of us were discussing the Oddball guide layout last week or so and I had mentioned I was going to try it with some surf spinning rods. I did and got the same result. About 10% more distance."


Probably an exception to the rule. LOL