I did get around to trying the weird guide system in the last issue of the magazine. It works really well. I measured a bit and seems like it is about 10% better than anything else I have used. Strange stuff but seems to work at least on the outfits I mocked up. Need to try it on some surf spinning rods and see what happens there.

I also tested Tom K.’s “oddball” reduction guide train (ORT). With the much taller Fuji KR Concept KL-Hs that I employed rather than the NGC KWs Tom used, I doubted the casting distance would be improved. Lo and behold, just as Tom and Mike found, the casting distance improved ~ 9-10%. Who would have “thunk” it! Nonetheless, the numbers are the numbers, and now from different sources. BUT WHY???
My theory: The first thing one will notice with ORT is that the line is forced to turn 3 corners (as Tom might say), 3 kinks if you will; at the butt guide, the third (oddball) guide and the choke guide. First impressions would suggest that kinks would induce additional friction and thus casting distance would be reduced,,,but in fact it is increased. The only sources of line friction come from the guides, possibly the blank, and air resistance. Today’s modern ceramic inserts are very smooth and slippery which add a minimal amount of friction to the line as proved in my “Precisely Measuring the Difference of Misaligned Guides”, [www.rodbuilding.org]
Although NGC and KRC “control” or reduce the coils of the line relatively quickly and in a short distance, nonetheless the line is still allowed to flop around within the rings, even if to a lesser degree. I believe that the straightest line path will produce the longest cast. While STATIC viewing the line path of ORT may not seem to be the straightest path, the line between the “kinks” is straight as an arrow during DYNAMIC casting of the line. By simple process of elimination, I suggest that ORT benefits from reduced air drag on the line. Anything moving through the air (or fluid; both follow the laws of fluid dynamics) develops a “boundary layer” at the surface which can act as a lubricant, if you will. A line which is traveling straight without flopping or fluttering will greatly reduce the aero drag. So, while the line may be touching the rings for an extremely short distance in three spots, the immensely longer distance between the guides is subjected to considerably more aero drag when left to flop around. Even though many may not realize the impact of aerodynamics, the simple “hand-out-the-car-window” demonstrates the effects quite well.
So, Tom’s oddball guide train is certainly just that = oddball. I would have lost money betting against it. But the fact remains that it works. BUT WHY??? While I may have developed a theory from my testing, I am very curious what other opinions might be. I am here to learn!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

A description, clarification of the “Oddball Reduction Train” (ORT) may be required for those who do not subscribe to RodMaker magazine. Tom’s ORT was a modified NGC layout which started with KW-20, KW-12, KW-8 with 8s out to the tip top but the third guide from the butt, theKW-8 was replaced with another KW12. His ORT was then KW-20, KW-12, KW-12, KW-8 with 8s out. My ORT was a modified KR Concept which started with KL16-H, KL8-H, KL5.5M, KB5 with 5s out but the third guide, the KL5.5M was replaced with another KL8-H. My ORT was then KL16-H, KL8-H, KL8-H, KB5 with 5s out.
I do not know what guides Mike was using / testing.
I sincerely hope others try and test an ORT and offer their findings and opinions. Afterall, we are all (hopefully) here to learn. ORT is quite intriguing.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Thank you for posting this, stopped wrapping the second of two identical ML with KLH reduction 16,8,5.5 to test this when i read the last issue, as it's not often for me that I do two identical builds, just have been too busy to wrap anything lately. Was interested in what size you used in your test Mark?

The term I used for the article title was "Oddball Guide System." But it doesn't have a specific name. It's something I discovered 20+ years ago and played around with again recently. It does add about 10% in additional casting distance in most cases. It won't matter if you're using a NGC or KRT or whatever. The results are typically the same.

The one drawback lies with stress distribution. Having the 2nd and 3rd guide the same size on a spinning rod will usually take the 2nd guide out of the stress distribution business until and unless the rod has a very positive load.

................

Interesting Tom, are you saying that getting into the power of the lower end of the blank is, for lack of a better description, harder to get to?

No, you can get into that with just a line tied to the tip. Guides are the problem. Improperly spaced or sized, you can force the rod into a bend that it would not otherwise take.

............

Some of us were discussing the Oddball guide layout last week or so and I had mentioned I was going to try it with some surf spinning rods. I did and got the same result. About 10% more distance.

Thanks Mike.
I am surprised, if not a little disappointed, that more rod builders have not tried / tested Tom K’s oddball reduction train (ORT). Preliminary testing results by Mike and I have coincided with Tom’s original observations = ~10% gain in casting distance. 10% is quite substantial, especially when considering the fish are always 5ft further than we can cast lol. Seriously though, why haven’t more builders explored this ORT idea? When so many of us are concerned with shaving fractions of a gram from a build to enhance (?) its performance, why is the almost obvious casting distance enhancement of ORT ignored? Furthermore, why does it work? The more builders experimenting with the concept will provide a broader base of information from which all of us can learn and benefit.
And I am going to nail Tom to the cross on this one; he stirred-the-pot with his article in RodMaker magazine, including a request for feedback. Apparently, he has received hundreds of replies which leaves no excuse to not afford the rest of us with an answer as to what is going on and why it works. Thanks, but sorry Tom = you’re it! I know you won’t let us down.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

very interesting....thanks for sharing...i have 3 sets of KLH 16,8,5.5 to go on some builds and ill be sure to test them out...great stuff.

Mark,

Most of the forum users here aren't magazine subscribers so this is likely a foreign topic for them. On the subscriber side, I've heard from something like 250 readers who, with one exception, all found a significant increase in casting distance over any guide setup they tested against. Keep in mind that there can be some issues with stress distribution with this type guide lay-out. The article was meant more as an indication of how trying and testing things can lead to information and performance that isn't typically considered a current "best practice." It was not intended as a suggestion that everybody should change their guide systems to this particular lay-out.

............

Mike Ballard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some of us were discussing the Oddball guide
> layout last week or so and I had mentioned I was
> going to try it with some surf spinning rods. I
> did and got the same result. About 10% more
> distance.


Mike, I've got a pair of AT surf blanks on my rack, would you mind sharing the guides and sizing you used on your build? I'm considering trying one ORT for a direct comparison myself.

I'll pull out the magazine and some paper to pull out the notes as well.

~Kevin

It doesn't seem to matter. Just take whatever guide you are using in the #2 position and duplicate it in the #3 position and then carry on from there.

so is it the ring size or the guide height that makes the difference? or combination of the 2.

Nobody seems to know.

Nobody knows for certain (yet) what is going on here with the ORT = that is what is so intriguing. One thing for certain (at the very least “apparently”) is that the guide height and ring size do not matter. Tom was using mid-height KWs so I tried high-frame KL-Hs, but I don’t know what Mike was using. So the heights were different and most likely the ring sizes as well. Nonetheless, the 3 of us, and apparently over 200 RodMaker magazine subscribers, obtained virtually identical results = ~10% gain in casting distance. No one can deny that is substantial! BUT WHY??? The more individual testing and sharing the results which Tom receives will provide a solid base to explain the “phenomenon”. I explained my theory above, but it is only that, a theory = just what I think or speculate may be the answer. I am here to learn = more input is required.
Tom, while your reply above is all fine-and-dandy, you are not off-the-hook (pun intended). You are obviously the focal-point of feedback as a result from stirring-the-pot containing ORT. I am certain you will not let the rest of us down by not disclosing the results. Besides, you deserve the credit = you’re the one that “thunk” it!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Ok. What issues is this in? Am I missing an issue?

Dean,
You are not “missing an issue” unless you have not tested / tried ORT.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Dean Veltman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok. What issues is this in? Am I missing an
> issue?


I didn't name it ORT, or anything else for that matter so that might be why you can't find it. The title of the article is "Oddball Guide System." So look in volume 25 #4 for that specific article title.

..........

It looks like my subscription lapsed at 25-2. I renewed today.