Hello,
Looking for more expert advice. When I put together the rod specs on the anglers resource guide calculator no matter my entries, I always get the 20H, 10H and 5.5M. However, on this KR concept printout I found, shows the latest is 20H, 10H and 6L. (See link to PDF as I cannot figure out how to post pictures here). I'm sure the difference is minimal, but can someone explain this discrepancy?

[www.fujitackle.eu]

You can use either. For most freshwater and light inshore rods I use a KL5.5M. It pairs pair nicely with 4, 4.5, 5, and even 5.5 KB/KT runners. However, the KL6L will also work fine with runners up to size 6. Basically your choice.

Norm

Thanks Norm!

Josh, I hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions in your thread as well. There are a couple of threads that have run recently that have a 4 guide KR reduction train, and I want to try it on a rod I'm building right now. Since Norman is da man when it comes to the KR concept spinning guide trains I have some questions for him. Hope you don't mind.

Norman, I ordered some of the American Tackle Ti Forged high frame guides to give them a try in a KR concept guide train. Their heights are slightly different than the corresponding Fuji guides, but that's not a major concern. What I am looking at is the height differences of the guides in this link you posted in another thread. [anglersresource.net]

I'm looking at the micro rods 10 - 12 lb mono fluoro guide groups. What I am looking at particularly is the height difference between the 5.5M which would be used in the 3 guide reduction train, and the 6L that would be used in place of the 5.5M. There is a 2.4 mm difference in height between those 2 guides, with the 6L being the shorter guide. The 5.5M bullseyes perfectly with the 20-H 10-H when placed where the KR software places them. Am I to place the 6L where the 5.5M is to go, and if so, it's not going to bullseye. Should I move the 6L so it bullseyes? They are calling for the 5.5L as the choke guide. I assume I want it to bullseye as well, so if I should move the 6L so it bullseyes, I also should move the 5.5L so it bullseyes as well?

I've mentioned in the past how I use fluorocarbon as the main line on my spinning rods, and the 3 guide reduction train works very nicely with 6 and 8# fluorocarbon, but when I bump up to 10#, my casting distance suffers quite a bit. I really don't want to bump up to 25H 12H guides for my first two reduction guides. Ordered those in BC grey Alconite, and they are tanks in the weight department. While they would most likely help with the 10# fluoro I'm thinking that the taller choke guide will help while still staying with the 20H, 10H for the first 2 reduction train guides.

I hope what I've typed makes sense. Probably easier to just ask if I need to bullseye the last two guides in a 4 guide reduction train. The reel is a 3000 series Shimano. The guide train is for a rod I'm building on an SB 724 X ray blank.

Edit for addition. I've been playing with different set ups using the 20H, 10H, 7L (the Am Tak Ti doesn't come in a 6L but the height compared to the Fuji 6L is very close) 5.5L choke guide. To bullseye the guides I have to push the 7M out quite a bit from the position the 5.5M is called for in the 3 guide reduction train. And I also have to push the 5.5L out past where the KR software calls for it to be placed. If I go with the 20H, 10H, 5.5M, then the 5.5L the guide train looks much better, but because of the height difference between the 5.5L and a KB 5.5 (which is what I use for a choke guide normally) I have to move the 5.5L in from where the choke guide is called for by the KR software in the 3 reduction train guide train.

I'm thinking the 20H, 10H, 5.5M, 5.5L seems like it might work better for the stiffer fluorocarbon line versus more supple braid. I like the idea of the taller choke guide with the stiffer line, just wondering how much I can play with choke guide position.

Any suggestions you can provide will be greatly appreciated !!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2024 07:32PM by David Baylor.

David - Place your butt guide (20H) and the choke guide (5.5L) as recommended by the KR-GPS for a starting point. Then position the 10H, and 6L progressively between them until they all bullseye by giving a straight line from the bottom of the reel spool to the bottom of the choke guide. This is the way I bullseye, it’s easy and works well. Don’t be afraid to move the butt guide and/or the choke guide in or out a little to get everything to line up. If using another brand of guides with similar heights, this method will allow you to easily bullseye them. I’ve done this with SeaGuide KR-like guides as well as match guides (PacBay and SeaGuide) with no problems. Haven’t used the AmTac KR-like guides, but they should work just fine. I think the KR-GPS will give you a reduction train length of about 23” or so. Going a little longer or shorter with the reduction train length is absolutely no problem. A lot of flexibility in setting up a guide train; nothing is set in stone. Try it and see what you get, I think you will be happy with the results.
Norm

Norman, thank you very much for the response. It is very much appreciated. I really want to try and make this taller choke guide work because as I mentioned above, I really think it's going to help with 10# fluorocarbon line.

Every one of my spinning rods use the same KR guide group. 20H, 10H, and 5.5M so to play around with the taller choke guide, I just taped the 20H and the 5.5L opposite of the 20H and 5.5 KB that I use as a choke guide on one of my already built rods. Which means I can't mount a reel to run a line through the guides. Is running the line through the guides that important, or can I just visually bullseye them as I do when setting up a normal KR guide train?

Also I probably need to speak about the Am Tak guide heights versus the same size Fuji guides. They're a bit .....whacko I guess is the best word to use. Not so much whacko that the Am Taks aren't the same height as its' corresponding Fuji guide. I knew from looking at the height chart for the Am Tak guides that you turned me on to, that they weren't the same height. Not that big of a problem as I did a KR concept guide train using the Pac Bay match guides you mentioned, and they aren't the exact same heights as the corresponding Fuji guides, and that rod casts really well.

They're whacko in the sense that some of the Am Taks are taller than the corresponding Fuji guide, and some are shorter. Speaking of the Am Tak guides, the 20H is 1.18 mm taller. The 10H is 1 mm shorter. The Am Tak doesn't come in a 6L but it comes in a 7L. The height difference between those two guides is only .06mm, with the Am Tak being the taller guide. And finally, the 5.5L Am Tak is 1.05mm shorter than the Fuji 5.5L Not that it would make a difference in visually getting the guides to bullseye, but I have the Pentalite rings on the Am Taks and the ring is visually noticeably more slim than the Alconite rings I compared them to.

Anyhow, I bullseyed the guides visually and took some guide spacings. I have spacing measured from the 20H, and measurements are guide ring to guide ring. I set the 20H and 5.5L as you suggested, then set the other guides until they all were bullseyed

Going with the 20H, 10H, 5.5M, and 5.5L. the spacing is 20H - 10H, 9.75" 10H - 5.5M 6.5" 5.5M - 5.5L 4.5"

Going with the 20H, 10H, 7M, 5.5L the spacing is 20H - 10H 10.75" 10H - 7M 7.25" and here is the killer one spacing between the 7M and 5.5L 2.625"

I gotta think the height differences of the Am Tak's .... some taller some shorter has to be affecting the guide spacing. For instance, the 10H Am Tak is 2. 125" further down the blank than on the rod I built. The 5.5M is about the same amount further down the blank than the 5.5M on the built rod.

I don't know....... I can't think that having the 7M that close to the 5.5L taller choke guide, is a good thing. What are your thoughts on going with the 5.5M in place of the 7M. The spacing by visual bullseyes is much better. If I go ahead and tape them up on rod I'm going to be using them on, I can mount a reel in the reel seat and run a line through the guides as you suggest. Do you think using the line is going to change the spacing and the bullseyes at all?

I really appreciate the help thus far...... but I need more. LOL

I like to use the line formed from the bottom of reel spool through the guides because it puts the reel in play when laying out a guide train. Eye balling without a reel takes the reel out of the process. I agree a distance of 2.625” to the choke guide is way to short. I don’t know the distance from butt guide to the tip top, butt it seems that the reduction train length might be a little short. Try making it a little longer by about an 1” or so to about 21.5”, Place the guides about 8” (20.5 cm), 7” (18 cm), and 6,5” (16.5 cm) respectively from the 20H and see what that looks like. Since I don’t have any of the AmTac guides, I can’t do a test layout. So these are guesstimates on my part. I guessing that your butt guide is about 52.75” (134 cm) from the tip top, and your butt guide is about 20” from the spool. You may need to compromise a little to get a layout you like. Hope this helps a little.
Norm

Norman, once again, thank you for the response. Very much appreciated. First I need to make a correction to my prior post, It's a 7L and not a 7M that I am using as the third reduction guide in the one example I gave spacing for.

So with that out of the way. The rod I taped the Am Tak guides to is my drop shot rod. It's built on a 6' 10" blank. From the butt of the rod to the spool axle tip at mid postion, is 13 1/2". The 20H is 20" from the spool axle tip. Total length from butt guide to choke guide, is 20.37" KR software calls for 20.3" I have a 5.5 KB as the choke guide and it's pushed out a bit as KR software suggests that it could help the line turn the corner. Still, less than a 1/10 of an inch variance. Butt guide to tip of the rod is 48 5/8"

As far as the distance you guessed the butt guide is from the tip of the rod. I put in the exact same information into the KR software with the only change being the length of the rod. Bumping it up from 82" to 86". The 52.75" for all intent and purposes, spot on. With the 86" rod length the KR software calls for the distance from the butt guide to the choke guide to be 22"

I just did the spacing you suggested. The 20H, 10H, and 7L (got it right this time) bullseye perfectly. As for the 5.5L being used as the choke guide, Visually, the top of the 10H frame, touches the bottom of the 5.5L ring. Brought in the 5.5L choke guide in to where I could see the top of the 7L frame touch the bottom of the 5.5L ring, and the spacing between the two, is 4.375" Which brings my total reduction train length down to 19.375. About an inch shorter than the KR software calls for a normal KR set up using a KB as the choke guide.

I need to get the arbor epoxied into my reel seat so I can mount the seat on the rod I am building on the SB 724. That way I can get a line running through the guides as you mentioned.

As I said in my above post. I gotta think the Am Taks being taller then shorter, then the same height, then shorter, than what the corresponding Fuji guides called for, has to have a lot to do with this goofy spacing. The 5.5L Am Tak being 1mm shorter means I have to bring it in closer to the guide next to it, to get it to bullseye.

Let me ask you this about Fuji's guide recommendations for the guide sizes when using the taller choke guide. Why would they change the height of the third reduction guide, to a shorter guide? Doesn't make sense to me. The shorter guide is going to bring the guide down closer to the blank faster. Yes it will flatten out a little as it goes from the 3rd reduction guide to the taller choke guide. but shorter 3rd guide is adding a more severe line angle as it enters the third reduction guide. Does that make sense to you? Because it doesn't to me. Instead of the line turning the corner at the choke guide, it's now turning the corner at the 3rd reduction guide. Am I thinking about it right?

Ya know. I actually have the Fuji guides in BC grey with Alconite rings to do this same guide set up. I have them for using a 25H, grouping, as well as the 20H. But they're just so much heavier than titanium frame guides, that I decided to give the Am Tak Ti's a try to save a little money over the cost of Fuji T2's.

Anyhow ..... I have some more playing around to do with these guides. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out here Norman. Instead of just putting the guides where the KR software tells me too, I'm actually learning something about spinning rod guide trains. And that's a good thing.

Something I should have done, but didn't, is take a look at the link Josh provided in his opening post. The guide sizes grouping for the taller choke guide set up in the KR concept have changed. And changed pretty drastically. The changes addresses what I was talking about in my most recent post about the height of the 3rd reduction guide being so much shorter than the 5.5M that is in the normal layout using a KB as the choke guide. They now call for the 3rd reduction guide to be a 7M, instead of a 6L. The 7M is 7.2 mm taller than the 6L. And they now call for the 6L as the tall choke guide, instead of the 5.5L. The 6L is 1.4 mm taller than the 5.5L.

This makes more sense to me. Sadly though, American Tackle doesn't offer a guide with the height of the Fuji 7M in their Ti Forged series of guides. Soooooooooo .... in order to go with the taller choke guide option, I'm going to need to order some Fuji T2s for this SB 724 build.

All is not lost as far as the set of American Tackle Ti guides I have though. I have a friend that wants me to build him a rod comparable to one of my rods I let him use. That rod is built on a RX10 ETEC72M blank, using Fuji T2 guides on it. When I told him what the cost of a set of T2's would be, he balked ..... actually I think he passed out, because we were talking on the phone and I had to ask him if he was still there. LOL The American Tackle Ti's are nice guides. Very similar to the Fuji T2's and are about $60 less expensive for the set. He may go for something like that. If he wants to play, he's gotta pay..... right? I'll be building his rod on an MB 724 X ray blank.

Well ..... off to order some guides. Thank god for a nice tax return ......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2024 06:05PM by David Baylor.

David, as I mentioned before, I haven’t used the AmTac KR-like guides before. It may be because of their height differences from the Fuji KR guides. However, AmTac goes have a 6M and it might work as the third reduction guide when coupled with the 5.5L; i.e. 20H (51.98 mm),10H (29.2 mm), 6M (16.83 mm), and 5.5L (9.25 mm)
If the AmTac guides are proving difficult, and you still want to save some money on a titanium setup, you might want to consider SeaGuide XOHG, XOMG, and XOLG KR-like guides. They are very similar in height to the Fuji KR guides. For example, SeaGuide - 20H (52 mm), 10H (30mm), 6M (18.5 mm) and 5.5L (10.5 mm); Fuji - 20H (50.8 mm), 10H (30 mm), 6M (18.4 mm), 5.5L (10.8 mm). Their XOG-W and XOG-N are similar to the Fuji KB and KT, respectively.
Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2024 11:49PM by Norman Miller.

Norman, thank you for the response. Once again, and as always, very much appreciated. In an earlier post I talked about the spacing using the 5.5M as the third reduction guide, along with the 5.5L as the tall choke guide. Visually they bullseyed perfectly by placing the 20H and the 5.5L in the positions the KR software places the normal KR 20H, 10H, 5.5M grouping with a KB as the choke guide. To get all the guides to bullseye I placed them as you suggested, by just spacing the 10H and 5.5M where they needed to go to get all 4 guides to bullseye. I liked the way that spacing looked..

What was perplexing me was trying to get the guides to bullseye using the guides shown in this link [anglersresource.net] for a micro rod using 10 - 12 lb mono or fluoro. That link calls for a 6L as the third reduction guide with a 5.5L as the tall choke guide. As I said in a post a couple of posts up, it didn't make sense to go to a 3rd reduction guide that was so much shorter than the 5.5M. In the link that Josh inserted in the first post of this thread, they've changed the height of the 3rd reduction guide dramatically. Making it a lot taller than the 6L . Makes a lot of sense.

I already ordered the T2s in the sizes the link that Josh posted for the 20H guide group using a tall choke guide. If my buddy ends up not wanting to go with the AmTac guides on the rod I'll be building for him. I certainly keep them and will have some options as far as what kind of guide train I want to use. Either the 20H 10H 5.5M with KB type choke guide. Or the same three reduction guides and just replace the KB type choke guide with the taller 5.5L. Or do as you mentioned and replace the 5.5M with the 6M and use a 5.5L as the taller choke guide.

I'm really excited about trying this new to me layout, with the taller choke guide. I hope that the way it works in reality matches my excitement.

And I've checked out the Sea Guide guides you mentioned. As you posted, their heights are very close to that of Fuji's offerings. I'd like to try them one day, but I don't know how many more spinning rods I can build for myself, I already have too many. lol I do have an MB 733 X ray blank that is just sitting here, so who knows, I may find a way to try the Sea Guides somewhere down the road.

Most of the spinning rods I make use a three guide reduction train using the 5.5M as the third reduction guide. I have done several rods using a four guide reduction train using a 6M to a 5.5 L and it worked great. I think I may have made a couple with a 7M to a 6L and they also worked great. When you check out some of the Guide spacing Fuji shows in some of their publication, they increase the reduction train length a little when using the high choke guide. You can see what I mean in this Fuji publication.
[www.guidesnblanks.com]
Norm