Humm.. looking at photos of the 3's and 4's on mudholes website and it looks like the feet are very different. It would apear mine match the feet on the 3's unless they have changed that design since mudhole took there photos. My invoice says i was sent 8 XF4XG05's, 1 XT4XG08, and 1 Xt4XG12.

[www.fishpacbay.com]

If you look at page 37 of the catalog, I don't think that you can tell the difference between 3's and 4's by the guide foot. (However, one would need to ask Pac Bay directly to be sure).

I think that this subject is much like any other product.

A manufacturer of a product, and the user of that product needs to be continually aware of product quality. If the quality does not measure up, the product needs to be improved, or the product will go off the market since folks will stop buying the product.

A guide issue is no different than a cork issue, a blank issue, a thread issue, or a finish issue.

In times past, I am sure that everyone of us have had issues with cork, blanks, thread and finish. So, just be vigilent, always inspect incoming quality of piece parts, and reject and don't use product that does not measure up.

I always do a deep bend of every blank that I build on, before ever starting a build. I want to ensure that there is not a manufacturing defect in the blank that would cause a premature client failure of the blank. Also, I don't want to spend time and money on components on a blank that is bad from the get go.

The same is true of cork. In years past, I have had to return some very large lots of cork, because the cork was not the quality that I ordered. Also, always do an inspection on every spool of thread before using to be sure that it is not one of the spools that come along that under tension, "pop" a bit and cause little tufts of material to pop off the surface of the thread causing problems.

If one ever changes brands of finish -- always do some test runs of the finish to insure that you have it just right and that with the way that you plan to use the finish it won't cause problems.

As always, if you have a component issue, return it to the distributor, and at the same time, drop a line to the manufacturer to let them know of the issue, so that remedy's can be made to the problem.

-----------------
This issue is similar to the report that I read in the news this morning, where after 11 years, finally 15 folks were fired at GM for not stepping up to the plate and fixing the issue with the ignition switch that was the subject of a current wide recall.
(However, even though the CEO is telling the tale, I really wonder if someone had spoke up, would any thing different have actually been done about the switch).

Generally speaking, the products that are sold to users of the components for building rods are very high quality and result in great products.

Be safe

Hello All,
Below I have pasted a post from last October regarding the 3 vs 4 issue. I don't know how to explain it any better than this. If anyone has a warranty issue with a Minima guide for whatever reason, we encourage you to contact your dealer, or us directly so we can address the issue.

"This question about Minima seems to come up about every six months or so and I would like to clarify the actual difference between the two methods of construction. To begin with, all Minima rings are double swaged and all of them start out the same way, with one side being swaged and the other unswaged, ready for insertion into the guide frame. After that:

Minima 3 guides have the different frame and ring finishes applied, then the rings are inserted and the second side is swaged. The second swage on the Minima 3 is not as pronounced as the first because it takes place after the finish is applied. A maximum swage on a finished ring can cause damage to the finish.

Minima 4 guides have the ring inserted and the second side swaged before the frame and ring receive the same finish in one process allowing for maximum swaging on the second side of the ring because there is no finish applied at the time of swaging.

We don't actually use the designation 3 or 4 any longer in our Minima info. The 3 vs. 4 implies that the 4 is a newer or improved version like it was software, when in reality, having separate ring and frame colors just requires a different method construction. If you suspect that a Minima ring doesn't have enough swage on one side of the ring, simply hold a straight edge (like a ball point pen or a paper clip) on the ring to get a visually accurate idea of the swaging amount on the side in question."

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Thank you for the follow up. The description of the construction method is very helpful. I have contacted my supplier and I will be sending him pictures of the guides I have to determine if they think there is an issue.

Geoff

This problem came up a while back 3's cutting line
You had said the SAME thing
So now I have to not trust your guides and get whatever is sent me -- check them VERY WELL before I give them to a customer Or myself
Don't get me wrong I like the guides - But - I don't need or do I want some one telling me there line is being cut and they think it the guides
If you have to eliminate coatings or colors to do this So be it

Bill - willierods.com

Bill,
The quoted section in my previous post was the same thing I said before, verbatim, hence the quotation marks. Below I have quoted another statement I made when this issue was mentioned on this board previously. We did not receive any warranty returns after the issue was mentioned back in October. These guides are field tested and continue to be used on rods I own. If there are Minimas out there that are causing issues under certain circumstances we need to see them IN OUR HANDS. I'm not calling people liars, this is just prudent management of our quality and process control.

"we encourage all users of our product to return any items they feel are defective for warranty replacement. This is critical not just from a customer service standpoint. Receiving warranty items lets us evaluate issues and take the necessary actions to maintain quality. If we don't get product back for evaluation, issues aren't confirmed issues, they are hearsay. Specific warranty info can be found at the following link: [www.fishpacbay.com"];

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Guess some posters just like to PLAY ???
I understand

Bill - willierods.com

Geoff Staples Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello All,
> Below I have pasted a post from last October
> regarding the 3 vs 4 issue. I don't know how to
> explain it any better than this. If anyone has a
> warranty issue with a Minima guide for whatever
> reason, we encourage you to contact your dealer,
> or us directly so we can address the issue.
>
> "This question about Minima seems to come up about
> every six months or so and I would like to clarify
> the actual difference between the two methods of
> construction. To begin with, all Minima rings are
> double swaged and all of them start out the same
> way, with one side being swaged and the other
> unswaged, ready for insertion into the guide
> frame. After that:
>
> Minima 3 guides have the different frame and ring
> finishes applied, then the rings are inserted and
> the second side is swaged. The second swage on the
> Minima 3 is not as pronounced as the first because
> it takes place after the finish is applied. A
> maximum swage on a finished ring can cause damage
> to the finish.
>
> Minima 4 guides have the ring inserted and the
> second side swaged before the frame and ring
> receive the same finish in one process allowing
> for maximum swaging on the second side of the ring
> because there is no finish applied at the time of
> swaging.
>
> We don't actually use the designation 3 or 4 any
> longer in our Minima info. The 3 vs. 4 implies
> that the 4 is a newer or improved version like it
> was software, when in reality, having separate
> ring and frame colors just requires a different
> method construction. If you suspect that a Minima
> ring doesn't have enough swage on one side of the
> ring, simply hold a straight edge (like a ball
> point pen or a paper clip) on the ring to get a
> visually accurate idea of the swaging amount on
> the side in question."

When holding a straight edge (ball point/paper clip) to the ring what am I looking for? Also is there anyway to know the difference between a 3 or 4? And maybe since you are saying you no longer use the designation of 3 or 4, but at one time you did your suppliers doing the same thing and sending out old stock of 3's when people think there ordering 4's. I would think there is a good reason you would change the design from the 3 to 4. Like they say if its not broke don't fix it. I would say since you changed it the 3 was broken in some way.

I sent 3 of these guides back to Mudhole care of the rodbuilding dept.because I spoke to a guy in that dept. who assured me that Pacific Bay woud be notified of the situation. This after being shot down by a Gentleman who shall remain unamed who stated (via operator of course) "we are not aware of any problems with Minima guides" Well you're aware of it now, and you have some of the bad ones to inspect if indeed you are interested. Lynn