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braid & guides
Posted by:
Phil Ewanicki
(---.res.bhn.net)
Date: December 28, 2013 03:24PM
The durability of guides is increasingly important, especially when using braid in environments with fine sand. Guide makers should reveal the Rockwell Hardness of guide inserts in their advertising. One number is much more useful than pages of anecdotes. Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
bill boettcher
(---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: December 28, 2013 04:23PM
Any info on that subject can not be trusted
The best thing is to ask builders that have used certain guides and braid lines and find out how the guides fared Bill - willierods.com Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
Garry Thornton
(---.natsow.res.rr.com)
Date: December 28, 2013 05:45PM
I think you are worried about nothing...
Today's guides are more likely to get cracked that to be worn by line. Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
Tom Kirkman
(Moderator)
Date: December 28, 2013 07:07PM
A Rockwell Hardness rating wouldn't be a bad thing - but I don't think anyone will do it.
............. Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
Spencer Phipps
(---.war.clearwire-wmx.net)
Date: December 28, 2013 09:04PM
I see more Vickers hardness numbers than Rockwell on ceramics. American Tackle hasn't been bashful about supplying the info, a search of the archives should answer just about any questions on other guides. Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
jim spooner
(---.dyn.centurytel.net)
Date: December 28, 2013 10:19PM
This is from Cliff Hall.
VICKER'S HARDNESS SCALE: RC= Ring Color Stainless Steel (SS): 200 Chrome: 800-1000 Aluminum Oxide: 1200-1400 RC: Dk.Brown Fuji Harloy RC: GRAY,. Alconite 1700 Fuji RC:Black ^ PacBay Hialoy RC: Dk.Brown ^ Zirconia: 1400-1800 American Nanolite: 1800 American SiC: 2200-2400 Fuji, PacBay. ALWAYS HARDEST RC: Dk.GRAY Shiney Stainless Steel (SS): 400 [B.E.] Chrome: 800-1000 [C.M.] Carbaloy: 1000 [B.E.] Aluminum Oxide: 1200-1400 [B.E., C.M.] Alconite (Fuji): 1300-1500 [Fuji] NanoLite (Titan): 1800 [J.M.] Zirconia: 1000-1400 [M.G.] Zirconia PVD: 1600 [B.E.] SiC: 2200-2400 [B.E., C.M.] VICKER'S HARDNESS SCALE: Stainless Steel (SS): 200 Chrome: 800-1000 Aluminum Oxide: 1200-1400 Alconite: 1700 Zirconia: 1400-1800 NANOLITE: 1800 SiC: 2200-2400 VICKER'S HARDNESS SCALE Values for Line Guide Ring Materials 2005 Stainless Steel (SS): 400 [B.E.] Chrome: 800-1000 [C.M.] Carbaloy: 1000 [B.E.] Aluminum Oxide: 1200-1400 [B.E., C.M.] Alconite (Fuji): 1300-1500 [Fuji] NanoLite (Titan): 1800 [J.M.] Zirconia: 1000-1400 [M.G.] Zirconia PVD: 1600 [B.E.] SiC: 2200-2400 [B.E., C.M.] ALL of these materials are SUFFICIENTLY HARD to make good guide rings. ALL of the CERAMICS (Aluminum Oxide, Hardloy, Hialoy, Alconite, NanoLite, Zirconia, Silicon Nitride-SiN and Silicon Carbide-SiC) are HARDER than any metals (SS, Steel Files, Chrome) and HARDER than any SILICA (sand) or QUARTZ. Therefore, ANY of the CERAMICS make GREAT RING GUIDES. However Silicon Carbide is indisputably the hardest among those listed above. REFERENCES: [B.E.] = BATSON ENTERPRISES ForeCast Components 2005 Catalog, page 2. [C.M.] = Corrosion Management (May 2003), pp. 16-22. [J.M.] = Joe Meehan, American Tackle – on RBO Forum – [M.G.] = Mark Gibson, Material Sci./Eng. – on RBO Forum -Cliff Hall+++, Gainesville, FL-USA*****(deceased) Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
Burton Bosley
(---.direcpc.com)
Date: December 29, 2013 09:56AM
Thanks Jim Spooner Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
Phil Ewanicki
(---.res.bhn.net)
Date: December 29, 2013 10:07AM
Thanks, Jim Spooner. That's what I call an ANSWER. Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
roger wilson
(---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: December 29, 2013 01:25PM
Phil,
I know that the numbers are important, but are there any users of the different guide types and materials today that actually have any evidence of line caused grooving of guides? I wonder if folks are worrying about non issues. Be safe Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
Phil Ewanicki
(---.res.bhn.net)
Date: December 29, 2013 06:51PM
Roger: I have heard anecdotes concerning some supposedly ceramic guides grooving quickly in harsh conditions and usage. I have no first-hand experience of this phenomenon, but I usually fly fish. I enjoy stories more than numbers but rely more upon qualitative scientific measurement. Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
Phil Ewanicki
(---.res.bhn.net)
Date: December 29, 2013 06:51PM
Roger: I have heard anecdotes concerning some supposedly ceramic guides grooving quickly in harsh conditions and usage. I have no first-hand experience of this phenomenon, but I usually fly fish. I enjoy stories more than numbers but rely more upon qualitative scientific measurement. Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
Mark Gwynne
(101.162.40.---)
Date: December 30, 2013 08:46AM
I've always looked at it from the other way around. To me it's not the issue of the guides grooving but the abrasiveness of the guide ring wearing the line. In situations using heavy drag the braid can get damaged over time and lose some of its strength. It will result in having to change line more regularly if a guide ring was used that wasn't as hard/smooth as say SIC for example.
In some applications spending a little more on the guides will pay itself back with the line not having to be changed as often. Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
Adam Curtis
(---.static-ip.telepacific.net)
Date: December 30, 2013 01:09PM
I have had a hardloy tip groove from braided line. Primarily used in the salt. You can hear it.
This happened after 3-4 years of continuous braid usage. None of the guides on the rod were affected but I dont have the rod anymore to see if it was just a matter of time. I put Alconites on anything that might see braid just because they are not that much more than Hardloys. But I dont think hardloys are going to fail on you anytime soon. That was 1 rod of a few at the time that had hardloys and saw 100% braided line over the course of 3-4+ years. Now... putting SiCs on your swimbait rod...... I'm not ever going to be THAT cool...... And some of the cool guys dont even know if their frame material is SS or Alum. Oh boy.... CHA CHING! Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
bill boettcher
(---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: December 30, 2013 01:54PM
Use the Alconites and a SIC tip top Bill - willierods.com Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
Burton Bosley
(---.direcpc.com)
Date: January 02, 2014 07:39AM
Where do the rec guides come in on the hardness scale? I guess I don't know what they're made of - Re: braid & guides
Posted by:
jim spooner
(---.dyn.centurytel.net)
Date: January 02, 2014 09:00AM
This was written by Thomas Lyle in 2006
[rodbuilding.org] Recoil Guides What Are They Any Way Hi There Again; The Recoil guides are manufactured by Ultimate Ni Technologies; REC being there licensed distributor. Recoil guides are made with Nitinol a Nickel Titanium alloy developed by the Naval Ordnance Laboratory in the early sixty’s and is about 55% Nickel with the balance being Titanium and trace amounts of other metals to making up its alloys. Nitinol being not only a super stainless alloy but also has some unique properties in that it has shape memory and super elasticity. After being hot worked in to a shape it can be bent and stretched. Just to have it return back to its original shape and size earning it the name memory wire (just like those eye glass frames that you can wrap around your fingers and they will spring back into shape, it's the same metal alloy). But it’s not the same kind of titanium alloys used in making the frames for guides with rings. Nor is it one of the harder stainless alloys developed by the Naval Ordnance Laboratory, SS316 stainless steel being harder. So if line wear and grooving of the guides are a real concern, you may wish to use another guide! But gram for gram Nitinol is lighter, stronger and more flexible that alloys like SS316. Making Recoil guides a better choice for fly rods and light spinning rods where its strength, flexibility and lighter weight are put to better use. But there have been some troubles with them. In the past to much was made of the fact that they do recoil. I think that the wire was made to thin to show this off and there was a breakage problem with the very light guide sets, REC calls them Recoil fresh water fly guides. Also the feet trying to move around under the wrapping and coating with the snake guides has been a problem to. Both problems are due to there flexibility along with its shape memory of the wire which stores energy then releases it on recoil. Most metal guides give up most of the energy applied to it as heat. The other problem is there cost at about $2.80 each compared to the under a buck price of most other wire guides. This has stopped rod makers from using them except on there most costly rods. If you have had to repair or replace a number of high end rods due to breakage or the feet dancing around under the wrappings you would stop using them. But some rod makers like Loom’s have had good luck with the thicker wired RSFX’s. But things are not all bad with the Recoil guides if you understand them. They’re a very good guide for fly rods and light spinning rods. It’s my option that if you stay with what REC calls the Recoil saltwater fly guides, RSNX's and RSFX’s you should be fine and the same with the spinning guides. Just take a little extra time with dressing the feet and wrapping them. Or just use the single footed RSFX’s guides with a Forhan Locking Wrap and the same on the spinning guides to. The sizes on the Recoil snake guides are with in the norm according to there spec. list and what I have seen. But things do get a little off centered with the single foot guides. I was told by an insider that when the manufacture first started making guides and was looking for buyers that some one placed small order for what should be a size #1SF guide and claimed proprietary rights to it and is still sitting on it. When REC started to sell the Recoil guides they ran from size #2 through #6. People started to ask for a size #1 guide and some one else had the rights to that size and wouldn’t give it up. So the Recoil #1SF is sized about half way in between size #1 and a size #1/0 to get around this. I didn’t know if the story is true or not but the #1SF Recoils are in between a #1 and #1/0 in size any way. The Recoil SF size #2 through #6 is a little bigger than normal. Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
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