I attended the seminar on Micro guides at NC. A question only recently came to me, but has anyone used these guides for fly rods?
I think I understand the principal of the line whipping and hitting the regular guides as the line is cast and the use of Micro Guides to reduce this action. As was demonstrated at the show.
I also know that when one fly fishes most of the line is already out of the guides, but if you were shooting line, it would seem the Micro Guides would facilitate the cast??? Yes? No?

Do I have that right?

Thanks Larry

Forgive me as I still don't really understand what constitutes a "micro guide." The proper sized guide is always your very best bet. That size is the smallest one that will pass any and all required connections. In the case of a fly line, you have a line to leader connection, and possibly a line to backing connection that will have to pass at some point. Go as small as you can in order to reduce weight to a minimum, but never go so small that you have trouble retrieving your connections back onto the reel. That's really all there is to it.

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Well, I haven't done a LOT of them, but I think I may have hit a point of diminishing return... Wasn't real fond of BLAG4's on a recent 4wt. Shot line just fine, but shaking out line when working close didn't go so well. The #4's JUST passed the loop to loop connection. To be fair, I didn't try it with another type of line, but that might have made a difference.

Just did a Sage "99" with TLSG5's and it's awesome.

Mark Griffin
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C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

Micro guides and fly lines may be a poor match. Fly lines are of relatively large diameter to begin with, and the loop or nail knot used to connect flyline to leader and fly line to backing may not pass easily, or at all, through micro guides. This problem becomes more acute in heavier, salt-water type fly rods. Furthermore, I doubt there is any significant weight savings with microguides compared to snake guides.

Single foot wire guides on something that light. just make sure your line knots pass though.

Bill - willierods.com

Single foot wire guides on something that light. just make sure your line knots pass though.

Bill - willierods.com

Larry;
I am by no means even close to what you would consider a fly rod builder. I have built one fly rod using 3mm Batson guides that perfroms quite well for what it's designed to do.
But going into it I knew there would be some restrictions. IE; not passing leader or backing knots through them. This rod 8wt. was built for a very specific purpose that allows me to use a slightly shorter then the more traditional length leaders which does not necessitate having the knot pass through the guides. However I also tie an unconventional knot that allows me to do so if needed.

This may be the one case were the PacBay minima’s would be a good choice allowing for smaller guides with larger inside diameters. I have handled a rod of Mr. Kirkman's built using the 4mm minima’s and it is an incredibly light well balanced outfit.

However on other style rods using mono, floro, and braids; I believe Pac Bay has missed the boat with this design.

Steve - Why don't you like the Minima guides for other style rods?

Correct me if I am wrong, but since Minima4 guide inserts are just TiCH chrome plated Stainless, why would they be an advantage over TiCH chrome plated single foot wire guides? They must be heavier than single foot wire guides. Wouldn't braid or mono eventually score the guides?

Greg

They're a bit "cleaner" guide, sort of a bridge between single foot or snakes, and ceramics. I can't tell you for certain that you wouldn't ever groove them but the manufacturer seems to feel you won't. Since these haven't seen widespread and long term use on fly rods it's a question for which there isn't yet a definite answer.

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There are few reasons why micros improve performance in some applications. The smaller size reducing weight is one of them by improving blank control.

The smaller inside diameter improving line control is another. One example; I have seen as much as thirty foot increased distance in pitching, reducing guide sizes by as little as 1/2mm going from 3.5mm to 3mm guides. Using 50 lb braid
It does this by cutting down on the amount of space the line has to slap around inside the guides, reducing the energy that is used up in that action. That same energy with the smaller inside diameter (tighter tolerances) is instead harnessed more effectively in the forward movement of the line increasing casting distance.

A similar effect as would happen if shooting a 22 cal. through a 12 gage shot gun. The loose tolerances between the smaller bullet and larger barrel would allow the bullet to slap around in the barrel using up its forward energy and fall out the end a few feet later.

With the minima’s they have basically reduced the frame size to the 22 then went back to a 12 gage barrel using a 22 cal line. (I hope that is well enough said to be understood.)

It is the same reason why the one 5’8” rod at the Expo casting contest was able to out cast all but two of the 6’6” baits casters.
It had 2mm guides on it, with the rest of the rods (except one other with 2.5mm) had at least 3mm+guides on them.
The rod with the 2.5mm guides on it was one of the two that out cast the 5’8” rod.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2010 08:32PM by Steve Gardner.

Thanks for the clarification Steve - I think the Minimas have a lot of potential, but agree that Pac Bay should offer guides AND TIPS sized to match the inside diameter of competing micros to maximize the Minima's casting efficiency.

As to other's concern that Minimas may groove. The coating on these guides is similar to the coating used on drill bits, mill cutters, and other industrial tools to increase the life of steel cutting tools, so it should hold up to fishing line without a problem - though time will tell.

Dan

Dan;
I talked with one of their people both at the show a couple of years back, then again on the phone with the Gentleman spearheading the project. If memory serves me correct it was the same person. Explaining these concepts, and they still choose to go the direction they have.
The one good thing with them is that they fill the void for those times when a larger ID. is needed for performance. Such as the passage of large leader/backing knots, and maybe even for those times when some on is wanting to use heavier say 30 lb mono and up and still keep some of the weight of the rod. Or in the case of some fly rods.

It would be impossible to cast a fly more than eight feet using only #15 monofilament line on a fly rod, and using an 8 wt. fly line on your casting rod would seriously reduce your casting and flipping distance. Different lines, different techniques, different physics, different rods, and presumably different requirementss for guides. Guide grooving would not be an issue for a fly rod unless it was used with shooting heads exclusively. Mimimas are designed for casting rods or spinning rods. There is little chance their design, completely by accident, would be of significant value on fly rods.

Actually, they are magnificent on fly rods. I suggest you try a set on your next fly rod and I think you'll have a serious change of mind.

At this point I won't consider anything else for any fly rod I build. In fact, I now consider every fly rod I built in the past 30 years to be obsolete. I can no longer fish with them after this past season fishing with my latest fly rod with Minima guides. (The carbon fiber grip has something to do with this, too. Cork just feels mushy to me now.)

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Tom
What is the weight of the same size ring compared to a single foot wire guide

Steve
A bullet is pushed though a barrel, a line is pulled thought guides buy the weight of the lure. Big difference. That is why cars have front wheel drive, to pull the car and not push it

Bill - willierods.com

So close that the human hand would never tell the difference. Not even close.

These things are not at all expensive and anybody building fly rods should tape up a set on their next rod and give them a try.

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Phil;
You may very well be correct in that you cannot cast 8ft with that setup. I was not sure how well I could cast it either not having done any fly fishing before.
So Mr. Kirkman was gracious enough to provide a few fly casting lesions, and although I have not measured the casting distances to be able to provide empirical evidence of the exact distances. I would estimate them to be in the 80 - 100 ft range.

I’m not sure how convenient it would be for you to get up with him, but if asked nicely he may also consider giving you a few lessons. While there he may even let you try his fly rod and save yourself some build time.
(Or cost you a fortune as you rebuild everything.)

Bill;
You a quite correct in part of your comment which I why I used the term “similar”.

But as the lure (especially less aerodynamic lures) slow, the line is being pushed by the rotation of the spool which often continues to rotate at a continually higher speed differential as compared to the lure’s slowing faster then the spool slows. This in effect now has the line “being pushed”.

You should also note that many cars still use rear wheel drive. And much of the front wheel designs are more for improved profits over improved performance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2010 01:02PM by Steve Gardner.

I am thinking the front wheel drive does work better in Snow then rear wheel drive. Then I know how to drive in snow LOL I love watching people try to get out of parking spots. Makes me laugh

Bill - willierods.com

I think Phil was referring to casting a fly rod with mono or braid, which has very little weight compared to a fly line.

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