Well, we´ve been asking about the spine location on these fine blanks and someone mentioned the white dots. As they said they are not the spine, I lately started to find it in the last models i had built ( from #4 to #9).
Where do you casters and builders prefer the guides placed?
The Weak side or the Opposite side?
What would be the advantages in each case?
Thanks!

Again, weak and strong sides would be terms that are are a bit misleading - the blank is equally strong all the way around. Stiff and soft are better. Do remember that these two are rarely opposite each other.

Check the FAQs page for a run down on what you can expect from putting the guides at various locations in relation to the spine.

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I was kind of wondering the same thing myself in relation to flyrods.Most people I know that have built rods have always told me to put the guides opposite the spine but,from what is on the FAQ's page,it sounds like maybe it is better overall to put the guides along the spine itself.Is that correct or am I reading it wrong?Tom,which position do you prefer to place them in on your flyrods for best overall performance?

Well, it seems to be that there were much more builders that were "kind of wondering the same thing".
Let´s make it sort of survey!
Stiff or Soft ?
Happy WeekEnd!

I would appreciate some clarification on this as well. All my buddies who build there own trout fly rods do as follows; find the spine and mark it (they place marks on the OUTSIDE of the rod when it is bent) and then place there guides opposite this mark (or on the inside of the bend).

I've read and re-read the FAQ question on spines and if I'm understanding it correctly they are doing it exactly 180 degrees wrong. Keeping in mind that their goal is the best possible casting rod. Let's face it you can sacrafice some fish fighting ability when your landing 12" trout on a 4wt. I understand it as to acheive the best casting rod you should be placing your guides on the outside of the curve.

On the other hand, I am understanding that for our steelhead rods (which we just use for indicator fishing, i.e. splitshot and big bobbers) where casting isn't crucial but added fish fighting ability would be helpful, they should be placing their guides opposite of where they mark the spine (or on the inside of the curve). Do I have it?

Tom's useage of these two adjectives brings up a question. Is it possible to develop a "standard" language that describes rod action? Orvis uses the term "flex" and references full, mid, and tip types of flex. That helps to a certain extent. But it leaves out the "feel". My factory Sage SP has a softer feel than my RPL in the same weight. Yet it has the power to shoot line just as well. My new hand made Rainshadow has a "vague" feel compared to both Sage rods, noticable when I pick up line and shoot it. Now I tend to describe the Sage rods as having a "crisp, connected" feeling compared to the Rainshadow. I have sort of honed in on three characteristics here, amount of flex, power to shoot line, and feel. I know these are very subjective, but does this make sense to others out there?
It's important to me to have a "lingo" I can use with customers to describe blanks that may not be familiar to them in a factory rod.

It's amazing the different opinions that exist on this. Dale Clemens book recommends, for the most part, that all fresh-water fly rigs (and spinning rigs!) have the spine on the water side of the rod, and salt-water rods just the opposite. I suppose the line of thought there is that with most freshwater fish the increase in accuracy plays a more signifigant role, in terms of the spine, than fish-fighting ability.

I just built an SC IV 9' 8 wt for fishing Kamloop (and Steelhead every now and then) on Superior, and I decided to go with the guides along the spine (per Clemens suggestions). With ice on the lakes already, too bad I have to wait until March to see how that'll turn out.

May I add a little confusion to this topic. First as Tom said, the strength is essentially the same at any axis. With this out of the way, think of the spine as a force in the rod that makes one axis feel different than another axis. If the rod turns to one axis when it is bent or flexed this may help when we set up the rod. We can use this resistance to turn when it is bent/flexed or loaded to improve performance. First, most people would agree that a rod will cast better if it does not twist or turn in the casting motion. With this in mind, place the butt of the assembled rod on the edge of a table and bend it to a point between 60 and 90 degrees. It will in most cases turn to a point or axis where it is at rest or a position where it resists pressure to turn it from the given axis. Very gently turn the flexed rod side to side to determine the degree of "lock in". "Lock in" is the amount the rod will turn when flexed. The less it will turn the better. Continue to rotate the rod and try to find the axis that "locks in" tightest. When you have determined the "lock in " axis, with the rod flexed in the "locked in" position, the guides should be placed on the outside of the curve.

First, the lifting ability of the rod is essential the same at any position 180 degrees apart. Second and most important, The axis you have placed the guides resists torqueing or twisting better than any other axis on the rod. When you are in the casting motion the guides are on top of the rod and the pressure of the line/lure are tryin to turn them to the bottom. The spine, "locked in", is tryin not not to allow the rod to turn or twist thus if it is reasonable strong, the guides will be held on top of the rod during the cast. On the retrieve the guides are on the bottom of the rod with the line pulling down, thus can not twist or turn. If the spine is reasonably strong and set up using this approach, the rod will remain in the same axis on the cast and retrieve.

Check your rod by tapeing on the guides, attaching the reel and placing the line through the guides. With the rod held at about 80 degrees (90 degrees is straight up) and the line attached to an object at about the same height as the tip of the rod move the rod forward until the tip is close to following the line or fully loaded. What does the rod do? Do the guides remain on top of the rod or do they turn to the side? Does the line remain on top of the rod or does it touch or pass the rod? Hold the rod loosely in your hand, does the rod want to twist or turn while it is flexed or is it stable in your hand? If the line/guides remains on the top of the rod with no twisting, wrap them on, you have it correct, otherwise back to the drawing board. Maybe this will give you some things to try as you try to unravel the world of spines.

David,

I primarily build light fly rods for trout. When I am spining a rod, I will flex it and mark the inside of the curve. From there I'll put the guides along the inside of that curve. This gives me the soft side towards the fish. If it were a big matter, then that would allow me to use the soft side of the blank with lighter tippets and protect them better. However, I don't think it is a really big deal until you start talking higher line weights and bigger fish. For a saltwater rod it might matter. For a trout fly rod I don't see it mattering much.

Rick Koontz
rkoontz@andrew.cmu.edu

Rick,

I agree somewhat but......

Yes I agree that we are all talking about minor improvements (or setbacks as the case may be) to the overall performance of the rod. But since I am able I would still like to make an honest attempt at building the rod so it will cast the line accurately and true as possible.

It amazes me that fly rods have been built on graphite blanks for a very long time and it still seems to be a mystery as to the best placement of the guides in relation to the spine for the best casting rod. Everyone pretty much agrees that you flex the rod and that the outside of the curve is the spine (even though I've heard a few refer to the inside of the curve as the spine). But it would sure seem after all this time there would be a hard fast rule that says "1...do this...2 do this and after your done you put your guides here if you want a rod for casting or you put your guides here if you want your rod for fighting."

I sure do like Don's logic from above though, it just seems normal that if you want the rod to cast in the straightest line then put your guides on the same axis as the spine. I don't quite understand why he choses the outside of the curve over the inside of the curve. But the rest makes sense

Rick,

I agree somewhat but......

Yes I agree that we are all talking about minor improvements (or setbacks as the case may be) to the overall performance of the rod. But since I am able I would still like to make an honest attempt at building the rod so it will cast the line accurately and true as possible.

It amazes me that fly rods have been built on graphite blanks for a very long time and it still seems to be a mystery as to the best placement of the guides in relation to the spine for the best casting rod. Everyone pretty much agrees that you flex the rod and that the outside of the curve is the spine (even though I've heard a few refer to the inside of the curve as the spine). But it would sure seem after all this time there would be a hard fast rule that says "1...do this...2 do this and after your done you put your guides here if you want a rod for casting or you put your guides here if you want your rod for fighting."

I sure do like Don's logic from above though, it just seems normal that if you want the rod to cast in the straightest line then put your guides on the same axis as the spine. I don't quite understand why he choses the outside of the curve over the inside of the curve. But the rest makes sense

Again the FAQs page has plenty of info on these subjects.

Orvis simply took the normal fast, medium and slow action terms and rephrased them as tip, medium, butt flex. Not bad nominclature for sure, but essentially the exact same as the terms we routinely use for action.

Action, or taper, works across the board. We can have a fast action bamboo or a fast action high modulus graphite rod and both will flex the same and in the same manner. They will "feel" different, as they possess much different masses even for the same stiffness. But at least we have a way to describe the action or taper of the rod how one can expect to flex when in use.

"Feel" is harder to put words to as it tends to be subjective. What feels crisp to me may feel mushy to someone else. Feel is largely a matter of response and recovery of the blank, and that has much to do with the material it is made from and where that material is distributed along the blank.

I'd like to add more, but due to our severe weather situation, that's all I can offer for now - I'm on battery back-up power for a few days if not weeks.. Check the FAQs page for more info on action/taper, and response and recovery. And always remember that these are different things and no one term can describe both at the same time.

..............

I am still wondering where do most of you builders like to locate the guides and why, in the XP series of Blanks Manuf. by SAGE.
Just an opinion, I can´t find that in FAQ section.
Thanks!

The FAQs page is on the money. This idea that you build one way for fish fighting and one way for casting is an old myth needs to be blasted out of the water. The original myth began when people were led to believe that you needed to put the spine in a particular place to prevent rod twist. Thanks to wiser minds, that myth has been pretty much cast over the side.

Guide position determines rod stability not spine position. So you can put the spine in your casting plane, whatever that may be and not worry about rod stability. If the guides are on top, the rod will try to twist. If they're on the bottom, it won't. Period. End of story.

Then you have guys like me who like to use the blank's stiffest axis and put it up so the fish pulls on it. Since it is not in any particular location to the spine, the spine can end up being 90, 170, or just 10 degrees off to one side or the other. Stiff and soft sides are not opposite or at least only in a few cases. I'm glad to see somebody else realizes this!

This would be assumed to be a fly rod I guess. On casting rods, you have to remember that the human wrist does not function in such a way that you can cast in the same plane as that which you put your guides in. You may think you do, but have someone watch you when do and you'll be in for a surprise!

I do want my spine in line with my casting plane. Here's what I do ---
Locate the spine as the outside of the curve and mark it. Now from the butt and looking at the butt, pretend you're looking at a clock face. For a right handed caster, put the spine at 9 O'Clock. For left handed, put it at 3 O'Clock. Guides will go at either 12 or 6, depending on whether or not you are using a spiral wrap. I highly recommend the spiral wrap for all casting rods by the way.

Since I've been building them this way I get a lot of compliments from guys who tell me they're more accurate that ever before when casting.

There is a hard and fast rule:

1. Temporarily affix guides

2. Test cast and you get to decide

Jim brings up a great point - you can easily learn all you need to know about rod spine and its effect on your casting and fishing by just trying your guide set up on different axis of the blank. Spine doesn't affect rod performance in the way many people think it does, but it does have an effect.

I've always said that there is no necessarily right or wrong place to locate the spine in relation to your guides, but where you locate these in relation to one another will have much to do with the particular performance characteristics that your rod will have.

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Why is discussing guide placement like discussing religion or politics? Everyone has 'Their Way' - It is a endless (and entertaining) discussion.
Find what works for you and use it - and don't be afraid to experiment.

Sorry, to insist !!! This might be "my way of learning", but where do you XP Fly Rod Builders locate the guides?
According to white dots ... finding spine and some place out there ...
Just wondering ... still!

Thanks for all the answers there have been about this ... there is always something new and to be learned.

With the test casting method,what is the best way to temporarilly install the reel seat?I'm assuming that you have to be able to change it as well as the guides in relation to the tests?What if conditions(location,weather,etc) limit you from test casting?Is there any way of roughly determining how the rod will perform without casting it based on the guides being along the spine vs guides being on the other side?