greetings,

fishing has been hot and heavy for swift water spring chinook salmon...

fishing from the bank/wading i'm swapping between two rods i built last year a loomis BB964 and lamiglass GLB 93 extended to 8'3"

anyway the guides on both rods are spiral wrapped and began as double footed fuji sic with the running guides being fuji single foot TLSG 10, 8, 7 and 6's respectively. i've had one (#6) TLSG break off and all have been repeatedly bent for and aft with the extreme play these fish apply.

i fear all will eventually break at the forhan lock wrap.

i hope i didn't miscalculate the strength of these light weight AND EXPENSIVE single foot guides. both rods are extremely light and sensitive and perform exceptionally. I'd rather keep the single foots.

has anyone had problems with these guides failing?

can anyone offer a suggestion, solution?

thanks for this OUTSTANDING forum.

tws

[www.theworriedshrimp.com]

Marc,

I notice that my 6mm running flys also get banged around, twisted from side to side and bent quite often. After 2 years of hard fishing, not a one has failed. I've bent several nearly flat to the rod, but no breaks....mine are Batsons though. I have broken a few Titans by bending them too often. The cure: re-wrap if you ever need to.

DR

thanks Duane,

yes 6mm... one failed so far.

it's difficult to tell if possibly the line took a hitch around the eye and tore it off...

i'm running 25lb test andes line through this system.

it's brutal fishing.

thanks again.

marc

I've had a similar problem with the Am Tac titaniums. They don't seem to be as tolerant as the standard guides for bending. The two that have broken have been with clients for less than 6 months. In that same time, the only other failures I have had were the Batson micro tips.

Which Fuji guide frames are you using 304 stainless or titanium. Where was the break? All 304 stainless guide frames are subject to intergranular failure by excessive cold working. If a frame repetitively straightened there is a high potential for failure in the radius of curvature of the riser which is a highly stressed area of the frame. Failure of the guides due to excessive loading during normal use are rather remote they are plenty strong enough. Wind knots or other misuse can easily pull a guide loose. You will probably find that cracking due to cyclic bending is the primary reason for failure. One day maybe the manufacturers will find 321 stainless which is more resistant to cold working stress failure or even flexible nylon frames will one day solve all the problems you are facing.

Strangely enough I had a conversation earlier today with another builder noting an increase in single foot guide failures. I think the increased failure rate is due to the increased use of braided line with much stronger lines allowing more misuse of rods. If a guy is hung up and starts pulling and jerking on a rod to get a bait free it is quite easy to loop a guide frame and cause a frame failure by excessive bending quite easily.

I have yet to see a cracked epoxy line on a 6mm fly of mine-lucky maybe?....and I dont think braid is evil. I use it nearly 100% of the time. Without it, many of my fish would simply get away, plain and simple. I dont consider myself to be too hard on my gear, but we do fish at night most of the time and strange things do happen in the dark!...and I know what braid can and wont do.

6mm flys are really not much in the way of strength when you go above the "Bass" range in fish. Many saltwater fish can do things to a rod that most freshwater rods will never see. I've had my rods bent into the split of the grips many times...often scared and waiting for the dreaded SNAP! Way I see it, if my flys have to be re-wrapped every so many years, thats fine by me, cause I know they took a serious beating in that time frame and the performance within that time was well worth it.

I do think the stainless frames are more durable when bent several times back and forth. The Titanium frames may be made to "give" but I dont think they bend and bend back very well at all no matter who's brand it is.

DR

heaps of info from you builders...

thanks.

i'll pay attention to my particular rods and report further failures and possible reasons.

thanks again.

marc

ps: the frames i purchased were titanium.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2009 11:44PM by Marc Forrest.

I've used Titans quite a bit lately without any issues, but the Fuji's are still holding up well.
DR, you're right. There are just certain things those green fish can't do that a saltwater fish will. I guess that's why the King lives in the salt.

Marc,
This sounds like a simple case of using a product that is too small and light for the application.

For these heavy and fast running fish, it certainly sounds like you would be better off with running double foot guides all of the way to the tip.

As you stated early in your post, the fishing has been fast and heavy.

Strip the guides and replace with double foot guides of the same size and I expect that your problems will disappear.

Take care
Roger.

As with any product - use the right product with the right application and you will be in good shape.

I recently had a couple of rods returned for similar issues. Although the the guides and tip were nice and light, they simply wouldn't hold up to the day to day rigors of the type fishing, to which the rods are being subjected. As a result, the clients have asked that the light single foot guides and lightly braced tips be replaced with heavier and stronger items. Nothing wrong with the original guides and tips. It is just that for the particular application, the guides and tips aren't durable enough.

Roger - This is second or third post I have seen now where you never mention the type of fishing/species of fish you and these guides are persuing. Please clarify so we can put this in more understandable terms. I'm really appreciate knowing. If I missed it - my apologies but thanks for clarifying anyway.

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Alex
He does right after "Greetings" :wink:
Quote "fishing has been hot and heavy for swift water spring chinook salmon... "

He's fishing spring run Chinook (King) Salmon.

Regards
Dave

Fishing is Life the rest is just Details

Dave - that was marc... I was referring to Roger Wilson's comments. Thx though!

I asked because Roger started an earlier thread as well but never mentioned the quarry persued.

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thanks Roger for the advise.

i had three fish on and landed two this morning. none bigger than 18 lbs. the guides are holding up but then again i'm switching rods every other day or so...

if i loose anymore single foots i'll replace them with the double - but will regret the extra wraps, weight and possible action change to sluggish.

i hope to get thru this salmon season only 5 more weeks.

marc

What would be wrong with soneone creating a micro double footed guide? Something that would withstand the pressures of larger fish and keep the weight about the same as a sz 6mm fly? Say something like a 3mm double foot ring lock. Any takers?

DR

Something isn't adding up here - if these guides are on the bottom of the rod, the line will pull downwards, which is not going to bend the guides fore and aft. Generally, such failures only occur when single foot guides are used on used on top of the rod, and then only in situations where you have a fairly high frame guide. In that scenario the rings do tend to get bent down toward the rod blank.

I would say that the power of a Back Bouncing 4-power blank is a bit much to be used single foot guides. You may wish to consider using small double foot guides on such a powerful blank.

..............

Tom,

In my case, I think it's more angler error at night than anything else. Lots of things get banged about in the dark and knocking a 6mm fly "off line" is rather easy to do really. I'm not sure if a fish can do it at all, but heavy use does seem to weaken them a touch when it comes to being able to move the guides. Now on the breakage.....I know that is caused by us sitting something on the rod, opening a compartment with the rod in the way., stepping on the rod and so on.... A single foot stainless guide frame can take being bent back and forth several times, but the titanium framed ones are less forgiving, at least for me.

DR

Duane I think you should reconsider your advice that a small 304 stainless frame can be bent back and forth several times.

That part is high stressed in the bend radius during the bending of the plate.

The manufacturers of the parts using 304 stainless do not include materials, passivation or stress relievingalloyingh that allows cyclic bending.

Here is some data on the complexity of dealing with 304 stainless -

[www.industrialheating.com]

I was under the impression that he was referring to the fish pulling the line through the guides and bending the guides. I don't see how that can happen (it may indeed happen - I just can't visualize how with the guides on the underside of the rod).

.................

Alex,
The fellows who are having the problem are simply fishing for bass, walleye, trout and steel head.

I don't think that the issues that they are having, have anything at all to do with the strength of the guide and the size of the guide as it is used for routine fishing.

In chatting with the clients, the problems are occurring, during client use - i.e. clients of the guides who are using the rods and their handling of these rods.
i.e. they don't use enough care, when they put the rods in and out of the rod lockers, they fumble finger the rods, and jerk them about when netting etc.
i.e. the guides are getting jammed up - on junk from their fishing and the guides are getting bent from the handling of the rod.

The guides aren't having problems from lines going through them, and the guides are not having problem as a result of catching a fish.

Bottom line - to protect themselves, the guides simply want "tougher" components on their rods to be better able to stand up to the day to day handling that these particular rods are getting.

It is easy to preach and say that folks aren't supposed to abuse the equipment that they are given to use. However, easier said than done. Also, most of the guides don't want to do anything to offend their clients that might prevent a future booking.

The economy is rough out there and any business lost is money gone - never to be gotten back!!

Thanks for the inquiry - Alex.

Roger

Roger - thanks for the reply. I can understand where that is coming from and helps out with putting the comments in context.

In that case, DFs may be the way to go, but unfortunately a tank doesn't feel the bumps a sportscar does.

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