Does anyone know where this model of Do-It mold is available?

Tom -

In this month's BASS Master Magazine, one of the "tips" from readers is to wrap soldering around the tip of your rod to help it throw lighter weights. The writer explained this would cause the rod tip to load thereby throwing the smaller bait.

I suppose there's a time when someone would want to weight the tip.

Now how many bassers are you going to see with wire wrapped around the tops of their rods thinking "Hey, if it throws a shad rap now, what will it do with a DD22?!?!?!"

I say use the right rod and go with micros.

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You get some really goofy rod advice from non-rod building "experts". I often hear things like this in sport shops, and don't know how they tell people this stuff with a straight face.

Wish that guy would call Jason at St. Croix and tell him to design some lead in the tips of their rods.

Tests with movable weights attached to the rod had one possibly helpful observation. When a sliding weight located about a foot above the spinning reel seat at the start of the cast is pulled rapidly downward toward the reel during the cast it seems to increase the speed of the rod tip, like an ice skater doing a spin. It doesn't work with a fly rod, though.

You can certainly add weight to a rod to balance the rod statically (when it is not in motion) if you think that is the thing to do but that does not balance the rod dynamically. What you feel when casting a rod is actually mostly the inertia that is a function of the mass and velocity of the rod, reel, lure and line, not the weight. So balancing a rod dynamically is not just a simple question of adding a chunk of lead.

There is another interesting question about rod balance and sensitivity. If what you sense with your hand when a fish bites is actually motion and by statically balancing the rod you are attempting to get the fulcrum of the rod at the point on the rod where your hand will be, the result will be that your hand is at the point on the rod where the motion will be the lowest. I know this is counter intuitive, but it seems to me that balancing the rod statically will actually reduce the sensitivity.

Savvy rodbuilders add butt weighting systems to reduce physical effort and required work over a long day of fishing do so to aid in the lifting of the lure weight plus the added weight of the rod tip. When working a long day in the loft flipping or pitching a 1 1/2 oz jig punching grass on the end of a seven foot stick the last thing a fisherman is interested in is the reduced sensitivity of the chosen blank due to added butt weights. It is the same thing as the counter balance on a set of sucker rods pumping oil out of a hole in the ground. The deeper the well the bigger the counter balance - some wells have no need for counter balance systems because they can blow on their own!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2008 09:50PM by Bill Stevens.

Purposely adding weight to the tip of any rod may indeed pre-load it so you can cast lighter weights than the rod was designed for, but you are going to pay a huge penalty in terms of reduced efficiency and performance. The rod will react and recover more slowly, be less sensitive and not balance as well as it did prior to adding the weight.

It's just something I can't imagine doing. If I need to cast a lighter weight lure, I'll pick up a rod suited to throw that amount of weight rather than hanging dead weight on the tip of rod that wasn't designed to cast that lure weight range.

.................

Emory, Personally I use them similar to how Bill uses them. I really like them on frog rods. When I am fishing a frog I am fishing a very stout tip heavy blank. I typicall hold the rod tip up to aid in moving the frog over matter vegetation, the balancer system really makes it easier and more comfortable to fish a rod in this manner. For this technique I am not concerned with a traditional concept of sensitivity in regards to feeling a bite....I will see it. So anyway, on moving bait rods I don't see a problem with balancing, and am more concerned with the comfort of fishing the rod all day than balance during a cast especially since I usually two hand cast something like that.

That is an interested concept that by moving the fulcrum to your hand you are reducing movement at that point of the blank. Does this apply to a rod that you do not need to add weight to to balance this way? And, last question...would that mean that if the fulcrum was behind your hand the blank would have more movement than if the fulcrum was at your hand? Sorry if it doesnt make sense, not sure if I understand what I posted, but it is making me think.....

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

Bill,
Are you one of those SAVVY rod builders that you are referring to? You used the word "work". I think that if you went to Wikapedia or some other source and looked up the definition of that word, what constitutes work, and you might change your mind.

Scott,
I know it is a difficult concept to get your head around. When it first occured to me I had problems with it as well. But if you think in terms of a simple lever the fulcrum remains fixed while the two ends move. If we balance a rod so that the fulcrum is at the fisherman's hand isn't that the same thing??? In other words if the fulcrum is not moving that is the point where the sensitivity will be the lowest and the farther that we move our hand from the fulcrum the more movement there will be and the more movement the higher the sensitvity.
We know that the sensitivity of a rod is not fixed. We know that it can be a function of the angle that we are holding the rod. Well I think that I will argue that it is also a function of where we hold the rod relative to the balance point or the rods fulcrum. It is an interesting thought that I have never seen referred to before so if you do not agree come right back at me and we will both may learn something.

Emory,
Thanks for the reply. I don't necisarilly disagree with your idea. I get the concept behind it, the reduced motion at the fulcrum does make perfect sense. WIth regards to sensitivy for this post I am thinking about the vibration you will feel in your hand which is transmitted through your line etc. In my mind that vibration would not be reduced a the fulcrum since we are not concerned with motion around the fixed point and rather vibration being transmitted from the distal tip throughout the rest of the blank. I guess my point is that you could never determine a fixed fulcrum for transmitted vibration, but you could for moving the entire blank as in casting/pitching.

Again, don't know if that makes sense or not.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

Scott,
Yes, I understand your point and it is a good point.
For movement around the pivot point, the fulcrum, I think that I am correct but for vibration that is not necessarily movement around the pivot point I think that you are correct. I think that I know which type of movement will dominate but I had better think about it some more before I shoot my mouth off.

In my opinion, sensitivity is being able to feel the vibrations in a hand that is not numb or cramped up from having to lift or hold the tip of a tip heavy rod up all day. If the place where you hold the rod is the balance point, as I think it should be, it is also the pivot point from where you will lift and drop the tip as you jig a lure, shake a shaky head, or as you reel in a crank bait, you will then have a continuous heavy feeling tip due to the drag of the lure through the water. If your hand is relaxed in the normal fishing position, it will more easily feel any vibrations because of less fatigue from having to hold a constant weight up in the air for long periods of time. Grab a broom handle by the end and hold it at a 30 to 45 degree angle in front of you for 10 to 15 minutes. The sensitivity you feel will be tingling from a hand that's falling asleep.

Emory this thread was started by a bass fisherman and responded to by many savvy custom builders. Hopefully, you will take the time to read the posts of all. Other posts responded with replies to balance issues.

There was a very critical point to my earlier post:

"last thing a fisherman is interested in is the reduced sensitivity of the chosen blank due to added butt weights."

This means that the original blank and build has done everything possible to provide the highest sensitivity possible - a given. The balance issue is a separate one all together.

I am proud to say that I am one of those savvy builders who listen to the fisherpersons and do not attempt to confuse the issues that are important to them. I have very carefully investigated the balance issue - and yes there is a significant difference in kinetic and potential energy. If a body builder is laying on a bench supporting a bar with weights on his chest he can stay there quite a while without expending any effort. It is only when the dude starts pumping the thing up and down when he performs work.

This analogy is not unlike a fisherman raising 2 ounces to total weight (summation of lure weight plus resultant tip weight of rod). I have gone to the trouble of sitting in a bass boat with a highly skilled tournament fisherman punching grass. He was using a factory rod that was 7' 3 in length. He made a average of four lure presentations a minute. In this specific case that equals 1,200 presentations in a five hour day. I estimated that he raised the tip of the rod an average of two feet with each presentation. He also lifted the tip of the rod two or three times during each presentation for rise and fall. His direct statement at the end of the day was "Bill that rod kicked my butt and my shoulder is killing me - can can you build me a better rod?

You should also understand that these guys are using a pitching technique where the rod is held in hand, usually by palming , at a comfortable elevation around the waiste elevation, and simply rotated the wrist about a pivot point, during each presentation. The rod is not lifted vertically during the presentations and no physical work is required by raising the total wetght of the rod - the weight of the rod possesses potential energy and its reference plane is not altered. Using this technique the angler does not raise the total weight of the rod - his hand is the fulcrum point.

I will not confuse my balance argument with the sensitivy concerns you have at this point. Seventy five percent of the time "the bite" occurs using the above technique when the line is slack or semi slack and there is a high chance the fish will be long gone before vibrations will be felt in hand -

This is that world where other senses such as skill and sights overshadow the sensitivity of the blank.

The installation of a butt weighting system enhances the physical properties of the fishing system, i.e. rod, reel, line, lure and fisherperson to those other sensory capabilities of the fisherperson.

For a Frog Stick a fisherperson has a couple of choices on a tournamet day -

Eat a bigger breakfast to store energy or have a balancing assembly near by that matches up with the lure weight.

Emory I have a very complete write up on these issues as it speciffically relates to over 20 task specific bass fishing rods. There are notations from the Wikapedia reference you note. I really wanted you to comment on it - we did bother to think before we talk - I attempted to send it to you via you email on this site and it said "Blocked".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2008 12:27PM by Bill Stevens.

Scott,
After giving it more thought I do not think that it makes any difference. Your hand senses motion whether it is around the pivot point or not. Whether we call the movement vibration or not it is still motion that we sense. If you do not agree then I would like to hear your rational.

Bill,
Thanks anyway but I do not think that sending me your write up on 20 different bass rods would accomplish anything.

Emory -

I don't know your angling background, so I'm just wondering, do/have you bass fished competitively?

If not, it might be beneficial to see the user related needs for a technique specific rod that Bill has offered. Different techniques need rods with different attributes. I would think to create the optimum balance of trade offs, you need to understand the various needs, with user requirements being a primary consideration.

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This thread proposed a balance issue - not a sensitivity issue - once again the path of the post is diverted

Mr. Harry quote from above:

" Whether we call the movement vibration or not it is still motion that we sense."

I do not think you are saying that the only "sense" a bass angler utilizes is solely in his hands.

You are making the statement that the anglers sence which triggers a hook may be things other than blank motion or vibration.

You are right on target -

Change in rate of lure fall, stoppage of lure fall, lateral displacement of line direction -

And guess what! (bass fishing)

If your are waiting to feel some "hand" tic, vibration, slam dunk or whatever you choose to call it many fish will be long gone!

It could be quite embarassing to have an extremely experienced bass fisherman in the front of the boat tell you you just missed a fish. I know - it has happend to me many times!

Again this thread was about balancing some bass rods - If you know of a better way to do that I am sure a lot of viewers of this thread would really like to hear them. Many of us know that adding butt weights in the proper manner to certain rods simply provides the fisherman with a better tool. The sensitivity issue is moot for these rods and this thread.

Emory Harry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Scott,
> After giving it more thought I do not think that
> it makes any difference. Your hand senses motion
> whether it is around the pivot point or not.
> Whether we call the movement vibration or not it
> is still motion that we sense. If you do not
> agree then I would like to hear your rational.
>


Emory, which part doesnt make any difference, I am not following. Regardless I appreciate your thoughts on balancing. Like Bill has said, for the rods that I am balancing I am not concerned at all with any sort of transmission of vibrations/movement to the rod, rather with making the rod more comfortable to fish. Still enjoyed the discussion though.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

Scott,
I meant that our hand will only sense motion and whether we call it movement or vibration it will be the same. Normally I think that vibration implys something that is repetitive while movement may or may not be repetitive. But the point is that the amplitude of the motion or vibration will be the lowest at the fulcrum. I do not think that rod builders normally realize that if you add weight to balance the rod at the point where your hand will be, at the fulcrum, you will pay a price in lower sensitivity.

Alex,
Yes, I have Bass fished but not competitively and I used to build a lot of Bass rods but I quit building Bass rods a number of years ago. I now leave the building of Bass rods to others so I do not need nor want what Bill thinks are the user needs.
I also understand that different techniques may require different characteristics in the rod not only for Bass but for other types of fishing as well. In fact, I think that there are just as many different fishing techniques, maybe more, used to fish for Salmon and Steelhead as there are for Bass.

Emory - Thanks for answering. Just trying to see where you come from on some stuff.

So do salmon and steelhead fishermen have 10+ rods in their boat to address presentation/lure styles on a given day? Forgive me, but I'm trying to learn something here. We don't have salmon or steelheads in SC. Do they use rod holders? Are they holding a rod all day? Trying to draw some comparisons.

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Marc - you should be able to get the mold from any dealer that sells Do-it molds - just ask them to order it for you from the factory - if they won't - try the next dealer on your list.

This sensitivity issue keeps rearing its head and clouds discussions unnecessarily. Adding to what Bill already said ( I'm sure he is going to grill me on this at the High Point show) - the best advice I ever got came from a Legend in Bass fishing - Bobby Garland - he said "weigh the line!". Just what did he mean by that ? Basically - make the cast - it doesn't matter if you have a slack line or a tight line - get a feel for - on each cast - what the lure and LINE weigh! Now - by paying CLOSE attention - if it gets lighter - set the hook - it's a fish! If it gets heavier - set the hook - it's a fish! Those that keep waiting for that tell tale TAP in the back of my boat in a tournament will usually see me boat 20 fish to their one - and think it's the color of the lure I'm using - it's not - It's knowledge of what a bite feels like - and it seldom is a TAP!