I have made a lot of measurements of the affect of guide weight and number on rod performance. In fact, if anyone is interested and has older issues of RoMaker an article describing the results of a bunch of measurements is in RodMaker Volume 8, Issue 3. In the article I compared the results on rod performance of different weight and different numbers of guides. The article was before the advent of the micro guides but the principles have not changed.
The approach that Denis describes above is an interesting approach that would no doubt work and has the advantage of measuring the lure velocity directly but has the disadvantage of having a person in the loop so that some of the variables like the amount of force applied and the launch angle can vary as will the weight and air resistance of the lure.
When we cast for the first part of the cast we store energy up in the rod, on the second part of the cast the rod releases that energy. The rod determines how fast the energy is released. In other words the rod determines the maximum tip velocity which is determined by the rods resonant frequency. Which means that we can measure the resonant frequency to determine the rods relative casting performance. Remember that everything shows up in the resonant frequency, the rods power , action, material, length, weight and weight distribution all affect the resonant frequency.
I measure the resonant frequency by deflecting the tip and then releasing it allowing the tip to then oscillate through a light source focused on a photo transistor. The output of the photo transistor is connected to an oscilloscope. Most rod builders are not going to have an oscilloscope to make absolute resonant frequency measurements but it is usually only relative measurements that the builder is interested in and that measurement the builder can make with just a stop watch. By relative measurement I mean comparing one guide configuration relative to another to see which one result in the highest resonant frequency. For example, when I wrote the article I measure, if I remember correctly, that changing from 9 to 10 guides on Batson IST 1084 Steelhead rod dropped the resonant frequency almost 10%. But normally the rod builder does not care if it is 9% or 10% or 11%. He or she only cares if 9 guides results in a higher resonant frequency than 10 guides.
The measurement consists of locking down the butt of the rod in a vice or something that will hold the butt of the rod solidly then deflecting the tip a few inches, the distance deflected is not critical and will not have a significant affect on the resonant frequency, and then releasing the tip and counting the number of oscillations by eye for a known period of time determined by the stop watch. This direct measurement of resonant frequency will work for longer rod as resonant frequency drops at the square of rod length. But the oscillations will be too fast to count by eye for many if not most rods. In this case add a little weight to the tip of the rod which will slow it down and then make the measurement. When you add weight you will not be actually measureing the resonant frequency but something slower but in most cases the rod builder does not care. He or she wants to know is does one guide configuration result in higher frequency than another. The one with the higher number will naturally have the higher resonant frequency.
One important thing to keep in mind if you take this approach is to only change the variable that you are interested in measuring. For example if you want to know 7 guides on your rod compares to 8 guides then only change the number of guides.
If you take this approach you can also determine how rapidly the oscillations damp out or a relative damping factor. This time without adding weight deflect the tip of the rod a fixed distance, say 6 inches, and then time long long it takes to damp out to say 1/4 inch with one guide configuration. The oscillations will damp out exponentially so this will not take long. Then do the same thing with a second guide configuration again changing only the guide configuration. What is happening here is the kinetic energy that is stored in the rod is over time being converted to heat and theoretically this process take forever so pick any initially deflection and resulting deflection that you want as long as you use the same one for both configurations.
If you are just a little bit lazy you do not have to measure the damping factor because all of the same variables determine it as determine the resonant frequency. In other words the configuration that has the highest resonant frequency will damp out the quickest or have the best damping factor.
These measurements are not really difficult and just a few of these measurements and you will develope a very good intuitive feeling for the affect that the weight that you are adding to a blank has on the rods performance.
I hope that I described this all clearly. If not come back at me.

Bill Stevens wrote:

"I have a problem that maybe some of you bassers can explain to me:

Spinning rods - casting distance

Light weight lures and lines in the 4 - 8 pound range - mono stretch and power to the hook at set - "



A few things that will allow a better hookset on longer casts & thin diameter line:

First, is the use of thin wire hooks, Tex-posed as opposed to skin hooked. The other is the use of a circle hook. Constant pressure will set a circle hook where the normal action of a hook set will pull the hook past the lip before the hook will penetrate. Circle hooks take some getting used to. I would not use them for the first time if money is on the line.

Eric

Chuck Mills wrote - "Mark - I'm curious about your lure weight and mono weights for those results. My spinning rod customers mainly pitch a 1/8oz jigworm or tube, and also skip docks with weightless plastics. From what they told me they use both 8# mono and 20# braids.

Casting distance....We have some lakes that are very clear so mono sometimes gets the nod. (I have been using a flouro leader with light braid.) They also pitch light jigs to finicky walleyes in the shallows and you need to be able to fling it a ways."

Chuck the blanks that i built on were ment for jigging on the river where the jigs range from 1/4oz to 3/4oz depending on the current, I used 8 pound mono with a 1/2oz weight for the mono portion of the test. I too like to fish for walleyes, in the spring they will move into the shallows and I really want to put a little distance between us. Most of the time I like to cast the shallows with a longer lighter rod and cast light lures 1/32oz up to 3/16oz my next project will be on a 3S70MLF (closer to your parameters) that's this winters project. I'll try to post the results for the lighter rods when I get them done.

Bill, I never thought about out casting my hook setting ability before. I however just realized that tournament fisherman can't use live bait and need a hard hookset to get the hook to dislodge from the plasic bait and then penetrate. I usually fish a river with live bait and have no need for a hard hook set. I use a size 6 or 4 hook with a crawler most of the time, when a smallie picks up, lift the rod and the current and pressure will usually do the work for me. My type of fishing may not apply to the style of a Pro fisherman. I still however am sold on the balance and weight savings of the micros. Now if I could only get a slip bobber knot to pass through them (lol).

BTW thanks for the heads up on the smaller stripper guides.

Rolly, I've done micros on a half dozen rods over the last two years. I have a very difficult time getting the size A thread to start up the foot if I have not prepped it just a little AND I have to have a little bit of a brace (wad of good sticky masking tape pressing against the front of the guide). After I get a couple wraps up the foot , it is fairly simple from there. I only put one Forhan figure 8 lock wrap around and then two in-front wraps. Alex D suggested I make a small cork brace for the front and it worked slicker than the tape wad. Mark Blabaum and I talked at the show in Iowa this weekend and he suggeted a littler cork-hackle plier/clothes-pin jig to brace the guide. I may commision him to make me an inlayed, checkered, Rosewood, Ebony, Walnut jig for this!

Emory;
Isn’t the human element involved in Denis’s suggested test, that taints the results when casting also involved in your test when “flicking the blank?

Steve Cox -

Glad that worked for you. I got that trick from Steve Gardner.

The next step you can add to that is watch the direction you wrap the tape that holds the cork block. If you wrap it the same way you roll the blank while wrapping, you can unroll the tape as you turn (once you wrap about halfway up the foot) and drop off the cork block and never slow down.

New topic... wrapping techniques.

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Steve,
No, the only thing that the human determines is how far the blank is deflected and this has virtually no affect on the resonant frequency as long as the rod is deflected less than about a third of its length. The resonant frequency will be the same if the rod is deflected two inches and released or deflected 6 inches and released.

Alex/Steve

Just a suggestion on holding the guide which has worked for me for many years. Get the smallest plastic wire-tie you can from Lowe's etc. (its four inches long). Tightly snug it down on your guide and you don't need anything in front to keep the guide from moving. Very easy to move and adjust you guide alignment. You can get 5-7 wraps on the foot before cutting it off. Just snip it off when your thread gets to it and then finish the wrap.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Bobby;
Bill S. was sharing your excellent idea with me the other day.
I will be headed to Lowe’s this week and buying some to try.

With the Batson feet being slightly shorter do you think it will work a well?

Steve

Haven't tried the Batson's yet but I don't see why not unless they are way shorter. If you are careful, you should only need 3-4 wraps before releasing..

I also use the plastic ties, but when using the Batson's, I go out to the small bench grinder & gently file down the plastic. Even though they are 1/2 the width afterwards, they still work perfectly & it gives you twice as much thread on the guide before you cut off the plastic tie. It eliminated the possibility of the guide popping out on you.
Jeff

I just use blue masking tape to hold mine...I prep my feet for a smooth transition and then cut slivers of masking tape probably a 1/16" wide...took me a while to get used to it, but it works fine now.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

As far as the hookset goes - you don't need a hard hookset on anything. You do need a tight line and a rod of sufficient length (more line movement) to set the hook.

Anyone that is having trouble with getting a solid hookset and/or losing a good number of fish during jumps and head shakes might consider moving to a rod that is about 4 to 6 inches longer. I think you'll be surprised at the difference this makes.

..................

Steve,

Think of resonant frequency in the same way you do other inherent properties of a fishing rod such as weight, power, length, action, etc. It is something the rod inherently possesses, not something given to it by the fisherman during use. To change it you must physically change the rod in some way, such as cutting it, extending it, adding or subtracting mass, etc.


.................

This thread is now nearing its end. We had hoped that those building the micros rods would take the time to post up to present some of the real issues that will challenge any rodbuilder when starting out working with the small guides. We are really not interested in the proof of why these rods work at this time - they just do - and we desire to get as many into the hands of rodbuilders/fisherpersons as possible.

The guide attachment and wrapping is a real case in point. There a couple of pictures that will point out some things of interest referenced above which are on the Photo board.

The guides are little and attachment requires some thinking.

The placement of the guide on the blank is crucial. If you build a lot of rods you have developed a procedure that you are comfortable with - some procedures that builders have developed may not match up very well when using micros. Things like tip on when - before or after all guides are in place. When are the guides tuned or aligned before or after wrapping. Is thread art practical? And many more.

Please consider the following:

This is very difficult to describe but you should be able to tell where I am coming from:

1. If attempts are made to make significant tuning adjustments to a micro guide with Fohan locking wraps on a vertical riser twisting of the frame about the lock point will occur. This is bad for for builders and can contribute to a lot of time loss.

2. Attermpts at guide wrapping with low tension or installation of inlay threads will allow the frame to move when the attaching medium is removed which caused excessive tuning requirdments. It is very hard to remove a tape medium without disturbing the guide alignment. I find it impossible with 1/8" masking tape.

3. If you desire to get them all placed and wrapped straight to minimize any tuning after wrapping you will need to use high thread tension and get them all perfectly placed and tuned before the wrapping starts.

4. Bobby's suggestion of the small narrow band tie wraps will mprove the problems noted above. I do alter the diameter of the band by two methods - dremel or knife notch.

5. Build sequence

Glue up blank and seat

Install reel foot vertical alignment jig - install and line up micro tip tip.

Engage and slip required number of tie bands on blank an close in near proximity to location each guide.

Carefully slide all micro guides under tie wrap and move into position - firmly strap down so that they will not move when disturbed.

Alignment all guides - reel seat jig - tip top - everyting at one time.

Wrap all guides

Verify and carefully adust if required.

Apply coat of finish immediately to minimize bumping.

And no Steve I do not test cast all rods - I have verified this set up on the first three rods I built on this blank and trust the blanks for later rods on same blank.

Prior to using the electrical ties I was forced to do extensive tuning of the micros by sight and twisting of the micro frams casued a situation where I was loosening the guide wrap prior to finish and really wasting time on the alignment. With correct use of the tie wrap very little if any time is required after placement.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2008 12:59PM by Bill Stevens.

Gentlemen thanks for participating in this thread which was started last Friday morning.

Several weeks ago a few of us were corresponding and suddenly realized that we collectively were getting numerous private emails and phone calls concerning micro guides. About that same time we realized that the sales of the guides were growing exponentially. So if you multiply the number of contacts we had by some factor for the people interested but unknown, then we realized that this thing is getting big thanks to this forum and Rodmaker Magazine.

Question was, do we do something or just let it ride. Remember the "All IN" last week? We decided that all micro builders including ourselves would be much better off if we devised some way for the more experienced to share lessens learned (shorter learning curve) . Bill Stevens coined the "M&M's micro manic" phrase and we set about to find a way to do just that.

I sincerely hope that there was some good that came from Volume 1 and 2 and I believe it's time to close Volume 2 with a big "THANK YOU" from everyone. Look for Volume 3 after the holidays.

Thanks
Bobby Feazel

FYI
uline.com has 3" cable ties that are about 2.3mm wide. They sell 'em in packs of 1,000 for $13.
The foot on the 3.0 batson is about 5mm long, giving some room to start the wrap.
Cheers

I haven't tried wrapping my micro guides yet but what about using a piece of wire. I am thinking the plastic coated telephone wire (or similar) wrapped around the rod and guide and then twisted on the bottom. You could then untwist it to finish wrapping the guide. It is plastic coated so I don't think it would damage the blank. If someone has tried this or thinks it is dangerous to the blank please let me know.

Patrick Rutledge

.Parick;
It may work, but make sure they are plastic coated. A major rod company tried this with unwrapped copper wire and 6mm guides a few years back, and the cost of replacing the damaged rods that were returned under warranty almost bankrupted them

Good to know. I guess I'll stick with the more conventional methods. Thank you.

Patrick Rutledge

Thanks M & M's. Learned a lot in Volume 2, both why and how information. Looking forward to Volume 3. Maybe information of how to hold on to micro guides with Turkey grease on your fingers ? :)