Bryan

I'll do my best to answer you question although watching it done is probably the absolute best method of learning. I believe Bill Stevens will be prepared to demonstrate the procedure live at the upcoming show.

First you need the proper tip because the procedure doesn't work very well with all tips. I use Fuji BFAT4.5(3.9) tips because that's the smallest ring size, largest tube size braced tip available today. The tube has thinner metal than larger sizes.

Hold the tip securely. I use pliers with a leather softener and brace it on my table. Take a NEW (and that's important) #11 Exacta blade and put the tip in the tube. Just simply rock it back and forth like you would using an old hand can opener. Doesn't take much pressure. Just go as far as you can then the rest is simple. See the picture Bill Stevens posted this morning to see how to expand it.

Second question: Under full static load, I space my guides so that the line does just barely touch the top of the blank between each guide interval and that also applies to the interval between the reel and the butt guide. Do a search on "line touching blank" and you should find lots of information to read.

Something that is curious to me is that often I will see people using heavy reels on what would otherwise have been a light weight rod and reel. If the rod is held at a high angle then the properties of the rod have the largest affect on sensitivity, largest affect other than the line. But when the rod is held at a low angle, parallel to the water, so that the line is coming straight from the lure to the reel, which some fishing techniques dictate, then the properties of the rod other than its mass have no affect on sensitivity. Then it is the total mass of the combination of the rod and reel that determines the sensitivity.
The point being that mass is mass whether it is in the rod or the reel and we should be paying as much or more attention to the weight of the reel that we put on our rods or recommend to customers, especially if we or our customers are using one of the straight line fishing techniques.

I agree completely with Bobby. The reason that is usually given for using enough guides to prevent the line from touching the blank when the blank is heavily loaded is that this will prevent friction between the line and the blank. But if you think about it, when the rod has the heaviest load on it, when casting or even when fighting a fish, the line is not moving. If the line is not moving then there cannot be any friction. When the line has the highest velocity, during casting, is when the rod is essentially straight . When fighting a fish if the fish runs the tip of the rod should be lowered reducing the amount of flex. When pulling on the fish, retreiving line, under most circumstances the rod should be pumped and when under the heaviest load there is normally very little line movement.

I'm taking a Quantum Energy E20PTi-A back to the store. It was a gift. I put it on a rod and it was like dead weight. The scale says 12.5 ounces! Nice reel, but too much weight for me in a 20 size spinning reel.

Emory, I definately agree with you on the reel weight issue....Other than buying smaller lighter reels there are ported spools you can swap out, as well as carbon fiber handles that are available from a few vendors that lighten it up a bit....now that I have been playing with the carbon fiber grips I am going to try laminating my own reel handles......probably be much cheaper than buying them....

One question though.. when you say tip down, line strait from reel to lure what technique's are you referring to? I might not be thinking about it the way you mean... usually when I fish tip down techniques I really don't care about sensitivity because I am working a bait for a reaction bite....not sure if we are thinking about the same thing or not.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

Scott,
One very popular technique for fishing Salmon is to cast and retreive a spinner. When using this technique one normally points the rod so that is parallel with the line and both are pointing directly at the lure or where the line is entering the water.

There are many bait casting reels presently on the market ranging from 6.31 oz up with quite a few under 7 oz.

Scott a similar use to the one Emory is describing could be casting a crank bait as far as possible.

There are some highly unique things about a bait casting rod with all small micro guides on top - all gudes 3.5 - when making over hand casts for long distance. Normally the end of the casting stroke will end up with the blank either horizontal or pointing slightly down.

The lure will travel furthur than normally expected with a conventional rod.

I "THINK "the lower weight of the entire guide system minimizes tip oscillation while the lure is outbound. The blank quickly becomes "still" - the line is running thorough the top of the guide rings and there is minimum if any line drag on the blank during the time the lure is outbound.

I have watched the line between the reel and the first guide on a micro all on top and a conventional casting rod with large guides. There is a significant difference visually - I wish Denis Brown or someone else had the equipment for fast action filming.

No, the reason for suggesting that the line not touch the blank between guides is because with the more traditional guide set ups, if it did touch the blank, you likely did not have enough guides on the rod and therefore could be forcing the rod into a bend it was not designed to take. Rod builders who weren't sure if they had enough guides on the rod could be taught to use a sufficient number by making sure they had enough on there to keep the line from touching the blank under heavy load. It had nothing to do with eliminating friction between the line and the blank.

The newer, lower, smaller guides require a different thought process. Still, if you use one guide per foot of rod length, plus one and plus a tiptop, you have likely used enough. Adding more will not do anything for you other than add unnecessary weight. As long as the line isn't dropping down past and below the rod you'll be okay.



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In a tip down retrieve (just inches from the water) the rods weight and "sensitivity" would come back into play. The force of the lure being pulled through the water, would load the rod tip due to water resistance. Crankbait or spinnerbait will offer resistance and pressure due to the retrieve, but when a crank hits structure I need to feel that as well. The least sensitive way to fish with mono is with the tip pointed straight at the lure. It has cost me some fish in the past due to ultra clear water and light line presentations. I always keep the rod pointed at an angle away from the retrieve to allow the rod to absorb some of the shock on a hard strike or short line strike.


Eric

Hi Eric: I need to check out my intuition - I checked back on a couple of your old posts about smelly stuff for painting cranks and somehow I now smell a "fisherman". Are you from somewhere around Dunn? I noticed from your post that you have "sensitive" hands that could really appreciate a light weight micro rod with no additional weight. You are on target for those other clear water tools like Shaky head and finesse worm with the micro stuff as well. We are glad you are hanging around and look for more participation on this thread.

Bill,

I am not sure where Dunn is located, but I am 22 miles west of Asheville.

I am planning my first micro build after the first of the year. I am just trying to soak up as much information prior to beginning my actual build. It will be either a 7 foot MH SCIII or a Batson RX 8 with a Forhan spiral wrap. It's going to be my jig rod, so sensitivity will be as critical as castability while pitching and rollcasting. Took some others advice and got 2 blanks to build for my kids Christmas to practice on until then. Just some el-cheapo kits, but good for hands on.

I have never fished with a rod that that cost more than either of those blanks, but I know I can build better than I am fishing now. I have made few cast with a micro setup a few months back that sold me on the idea.


Eric

Bill,
The vibration or movement of the tip of the rod is called the damping factor and it is determined by the same variables that determine the resonant frequency two of which are the weight and the weight distribution. As far as getting the maximun out of your casts you will get the maximund out of any rod, reel, line combination if the rod is pointed directly or parallel with the line during the entire flight of the lure.

Eric,
I am afraid the you are in error. The most sensitive is with the rod pointed directly at the lure. This results in only the mass density and the elasticity of the line and the tension on the line affecting sensitivity and of coarse the mass of the rod and reel. If the rod is deflected then the properties of the rod will also come into play reducing the sensitivity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2008 09:18PM by Emory Harry.

Emory,

I was always under the impression that to have the most sensitivity the line should be at a 90 degree angle to the rod tip. Now what you say does make sense, so even if I don't have my hand on the line, a low quality rod will be just as sensitive as a high quality rod if I point both rods at the lure? (by sensitivity I am referring to feeling the bite not seeing it) Thanks,

Patrick Rutledge

Patrick,
Yes, I think that we are on the same page but I did not express myself very clearly. The best sensitivity will be achieved when the rod is parallel with the line but I said that only the properties of the line and the tension on the line will affect the sensitivity under those conditions. What I should have said is that the mass density and elasticity of the line and tension on the line AND THE MASS OF THE ROD AND REEL. The mass of the rod and reel will still affect senitivity but the other properties of the rod like the mass distribution will not have any affect. Sorry for the confusion but the mass, or weight if you prefer, of the rod and reel will always have an effect. So a lower quality rod, if by that you mean heavier rod, will be less sensitive.
When the rod tip is raised all of the other properties of the rod start to come into play. By the time that the rod is raised up to 90 degrees, as you suggest, there are a number of additional variables and the situation becomes much more complex. I do not think that I can explain it here. If you have a copy of RodMaker Volume 10 Issue 4 in it there is an article that I wrote explaining sensitivity. Read it over and then come back at me. The article explains better than I can here There is one major error in the article though. It states that the softest rod is the most sensitive when in fact the stiffest rod for a given weight is the most sensititve.
Again, sorry for not being clear.

Emory,

I will test your therory, to see if I can feel a difference for myself. I've got a 3 acre test pond below the house. It is just too cold right now to test.


Eric

Eric,
The difference will not be as large as going from mono to braid but you should feel the difference. As far as I know the outside temperature does not affect sensitivity. Get out and try it.

Emory,

I will have to get my self a copy of that issue. But I think I understand what you are saying. Makes sense, just contradicts what I've learned in the past. Since I started reading this forum this year I have had to re-think a few things that I 'knew'. The rod building community seems more 'wise' then a lot of the general fishing community. Thanks,

Patrick Rutledge

Had to stop typing and go to the test pond. With it being dark I was relying completely on vibration sensation. Tried both retrieves tip at the lure, and tip to the side, 6'6" MH fast tip 12 lb XT line diving crank running 10-12 foot. 10 cast each.(It's too cold to stay for long) I will say that I was surprised that I can feel quiet a bit more than I thought I would trying the tip toward the lure during retrieve. However it felt more like the rod was trying to pull out and away from my body if I struck something instead of feeling the normal tick whenever I hit something hard. I am not saying that is a bad thing, but it is not what I am use to. Whenever I made my normal cast and retrieve I was easily able to recognize the log jam the rocks and the mud. But this could just be that I have fished this way for 30 years and that is what I am used to. I will have to try it again on a warmer day and go more than ten casts each, and use some of my lighter lines that I have to use in clear water. The lighter mono will stretch a whole lot more than the XT. I will have to keep a tighter forearm as that could be taking away from the sensation when the rod pulls forward.


Eric

Eric,
There is nothing that will have more affect on your sensitivity than going from mono to braid. The amplitude of vibrations that come up the line are determined by the mass density of the line which you can think of as the weight of the line, the elasticity of the line which you can think of as the stretch in the line and the amount of tension on the line. The higher the tensionon on the line the less stretch inthe line and the lower the mass of the line the higher the amplitude of the vibrations. I use the word vibrations for lack of a better word.
I dislike the braids for other reasons unrelated to sensitivity but the weight of the braids for a given pound test is much lower than for mono and the stretch in the braids is much less than with mono resulting in the braids having much better sensitivity. The difference in mass or weight of the rod and reel is very important but the difference in weight of the rod and the reel will have to be pretty high before it will have an equivalent affect on sensitivity or how much you feel.

Emory I would appreciate your opinion on the following:

Rod 1 A micro rod built with all micros on top of the rod and a micro tip well built and extremely light

Rod 2 Conventional rod built on same blank with properly set up guides

Exact same reels, braid and lure (0.5 oz)

Same person test casting each

After a large number of repetetive casts Rod 1 throws 20 - 25 ft furthur

Best estimates of in flight time of micro rod from release to lure landing is approximately 3 seconds

What is your estimate of the percentage of the lure flight time is significant tip oscillation occuring. How long does it take each to quiet down.

If an observer watches the line from the reel to the first guide the micro rod appears to be a lot "tamer" with lower nodes.

The micro rods improved distance - is it due to the Lower weight issue alone or is "line flow" in the mix.

Does the logic of the guide mini ramps and the guide riser frame angle presented above by Denis Brown and Bobby F. get involved.

If I could get some targets to work on for improvement of these rods I would appreciate it.