Emory,

When you can see a white spinnerbait laying on the bottom in 15-20 foot of water, nothing will kill your weigh in bag like braid. Two of my closest lakes are smallie water, so braid just isn't an option for me. I have tried almost every braid on the market, and have come to the conclusion that for the water I fish, braid is not the way to go. Flouro and mono are the best for where I fish. Some of the flat land reservoirs where I go to pleasure fish aren't as clear so I get a way with larger line in these waters.


Eric

Bill

I may have caused some confusion around the micro ramps.

Yes, I told you that I like to see them (they are caused by epoxy creep on forhan locking wraps) because I feel that they contribute to fewer braid wind knots. You rarely get a wind know on a rod with this micro setup. However; I did not intend to claim that the ramp made me cast farther but maybe you are right and it does. Dennis can probably straighten this out.

I also feel (just subjective) that a large contribution to the added distance is the elemination of transition guides. I think the smaller butt guide is what tames the line thus less movement over the remaining guides. I'm assuming that you did your test casting on a rod with all one size guides.

I just received the following message from Denis Brown who seems to be on vacation at a hide away cabin in the out back on the other side of the down under world. He is replying to the last post I made on seeking an answer for what makes these things work - I really want to have a valid reason why when I tell a fisherman they are the creme-de-la creme of fishing rods!

Bill

"Love your loaded 10.45pm question - not going to spoil the fun

The answer should be all of the above. ( as per the thread on rod dynamics earlier).

with less dampened rod reflex ( reduced inertia ) & reduced wind resistance of the rod in the cast having the greatest effect - via increased tip speed producing increased lure velocity. reduced tip oscillation having a significant effect but less than the above 2.

Emory will get you on your poor choice of words again - on the "nodes" bit. you should have said less "amplitude" the nodes are null points that don't move at all in a wave form (sort of .......... like the pivot on a seesaw )."

End Denis Brown comment:

Now all I have to do is figure out what all this means in fisherperson terms so I can structure a Needs Benefit Statement that uses the correct wording for the features that make them work - and work they do!

Bill, I'm curious on the casting distance as well. I had built on two identical spinning rods (6'2" 3C62MF blank) one conventional guides (25,12,8,then 6's) the other with micro guides (10,6 then 3's out with a 4 tip); the micros out cast with braid line 57 yards vs 51 yards (with mono it was a wash). Results came from switching the reel from one rod to the other to eliminate that as a variable, some seem to think it was because the stripper was smaller others because of less weight on the tip. Does any one have a way to tell which theory is correct? I think it may have been a combination of the two that increased the casting distance. The true value I see with micros is taking the weight off the front of a blank making the rod feel lighter and easier to balance with out adding more weight to the butt making it more comfortable to fish for longer periods of time.

BTW the conventional was picked up before I could try it with a different stripper so I couldn't tell if that was the variable or not.

I have only built thre micro spinning rods and can not comment on distance - the ones I build were for throwing - skipping 1/16 to 1/4 finesse worms. The customers were highly pleased. I do know that Pat Vinzant specializes in spinning rods - he will be a seminar presenter at the ICRBE in February - maybe he will post up on some of his results.

Mark;
That one's easy take your first set up (25,12,8,then 6's) change your 6mm's for 3's and you should have your answer.

I think you will also find that the "with mono it was a wash" will no longer be a wash.

But at the same time, if you don’t change anything to find out, and with the smaller stripper and guides, you’ve ended up with a lighter, better balanced rod, that casts the same. You have still improved over you previous models



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2008 10:36AM by Steve Gardner.

Mark,

What do you mean by it was a wash? Do you mean they preformed the same? Thanks,

Patrick Rutledge

I have a problem that maybe some of you bassers can explain to me:

Spinning rods - casting distance

Light weight lures and lines in the 4 - 8 pound range - mono stretch and power to the hook at set -

Why all the concern on casting distance to start with - you are out of hook set distance well within the range of any rod set up.

It looks like the primary concern would be the one related to that "sensitivity" issue that we all get balled up in -

The lower weight of the micro system will improve "that" on any rod due to significant reduction in weight.

A micro spinning rod feels like you have nothing in hand -



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2008 01:18PM by Bill Stevens.

Yes the casting distance was very close to the same (average with in a foot) with mono. I think that the memory of the mono may have been part of the problem with the micros, with that said the weight savings and the same distance would tip the performance towards the micros. I really like the performance of the micros and think the biggest short coming will be getting people to break tradition and give them a try. BTW wrapping the micros isn't any worse than a size 6, with a little practice even a Norweigen from Wisconsin can do it (lol).

Steve, I've got a couple of blanks (3C70MLF) next on the build list I'll give your suggestion a try and see what happens. I know that bait casters are a different beast than spinning rods, I only wish I could find some really tall 8's and 6's to try as stipping guides as well.

Bill, casting distance is always a concern with a finesse rig. You don't want to spook fish by getting to close, so you do want to be able to cast a good distance too your target the same principle as bait casting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2008 11:19AM by mark blabaum.

Bill I agree that the improvements being discussed are allowing for outcasting hooksetting ability. Making it more important that a fisherman be aware of the limitations of his equipment in that respect. Something to think about is that a rod built in such a way that casting distance is significantly improved requires less effort to cast distances within the equipment's hooksetting range, resulting in less angler fatigue. Lower tip weight resulting in faster "quieting" of the tip should also make for more accurate casting-smoothing line flow-controlling line being a requirement for accurate casting.
I have a couple of ultralight panfish type spinning rods that IMO have been underachievers in the casting distance dept. and I believe one of the reasons for that is that they are severely "overguided". The only time their tips are quiet is when they are laying on the deck-unused.

Chris

Bill,
I think there is a correlation of distance to efficiency. Before the grass gets up in Guntersville, I often throw a weightless (“trick”) worm with spinning rod (guides 25, 12, 6, 3.5 runners and 3.5 sf tip) using 10# braid. The worm really doesn’t cast well, probably due to its ungainly mass/shape. Any increase in casting efficiency (not necessarily distance) would be beneficial. I’m intrigued by what you and Steve refer to as a “micro spinning rod”. I gather that it has little semblance to the “new concept system”. Am I correct in assuming that the line is quickly brought down close to the blank and channeled to the running guides? And, you’re seeing an increase in casting distance (efficiency) by using smaller butt guides vs. “conventional wisdom” of ½ the dia. of reel spool?

mark blabaum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill, I'm curious on the casting distance as well.
> I had built on two identical spinning rods (6'2"
> 3C62MF blank) one conventional guides
> (25,12,8,then 6's) the other with micro guides
> (10,6 then 3's out with a 4 tip); the micros out
> cast with braid line 57 yards vs 51 yards (with
> mono it was a wash). Results came from switching
> the reel from one rod to the other to eliminate
> that as a variable, some seem to think it was
> because the stripper was smaller others because of
> less weight on the tip. Does any one have a way to
> tell which theory is correct? I think it may have
> been a combination of the two that increased the
> casting distance. The true value I see with micros
> is taking the weight off the front of a blank
> making the rod feel lighter and easier to balance
> with out adding more weight to the butt making it
> more comfortable to fish for longer periods of
> time.

Mark - I'm curious about your lure weight and mono weights for those results. My spinning rod customers mainly pitch a 1/8oz jigworm or tube, and also skip docks with weightless plastics. From what they told me they use both 8# mono and 20# braids.

Casting distance....We have some lakes that are very clear so mono sometimes gets the nod. (I have been using a flouro leader with light braid.) They also pitch light jigs to finicky walleyes in the shallows and you need to be able to fling it a ways.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2008 11:58AM by Chuck Mills.

One of the important things Micro Guides are closely tied to is a thing called balance. They have completely changed the way that I now balance my bass sticks. My reel placement has considerably been changed by these light as air creatures.
I also have a question regarding the Fuji Micro frames. I see they are serrated on the top of the frame. Are they placed there to assist in holding & if you use more tension, is it still necessary to use the Forhan locks? Also, if the Forhan lock is on the horizontal run of the guide foot, does it really keep the guide from pulling?
Jeff

Jeff
I was looking at Steve Cox's picture of the 3.5 guide and it looks like there is only 7-8 wraps from the inlay. If that is the case then he must be using a modified Forhan wrap on these guides.

When I do a forhan I end up using 7 wraps on a #6 guide.

I would think that the serations on the guide foot would assist in holding the thread. Do these guides need prep before using or are the ramps already fairly well prepped?

Rolly Beenen
Rovic Custom Rods

I'm not prepping either the Batson or the Fuji 3.5's. I'm not sure whether I would even attempt to throw an accent wrap on these things for fear of durability on my bass sticks, but it doesn't mean they are weaking the wrap, just my thought at present. One of the reasons I ask about the Forhan wrap, or the absence of it, is the ramp it creates on my guides when applying finish. It doesn't hurt anything, it may or may not help, but it is a different look. Maybe a creation of a test that could determine how strong the wraps are with & without the Forhan wrap. A test of both manufacturers micros. How such a test could be created & performed I will have to leave up to the BOB's(Brains of the Board). (that's a joke for those who don't know me).
I Do think the the serrations on the Fuji Micros give a distinct advantage over the Batson Micro's. At least presently. I'm also not knowledgeable of what it takes for a manufacturer to build a new product such as Tip Tops, but this whole micro deal is Greatly compromised by the present Tip Tops that are available. They would benefit greatly to pay attention & get off the pot & get some Tip Tops that will compliment this new trend in crafting the best rods yet.
Jeff



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2008 04:48PM by Jeff Friend.

Jeff;
"Is it still necessary to use the Forhan locks? Also, if the Forhan lock is on the horizontal run of the guide foot, does it really keep the guide from pulling?"

I can't absolutely say for sure that they do, but what I can say is that in almost 3 years of building and use. Using the Forhan locking wraps, I've yet to see one pull out.

I can also say that even when using larger 6mm and above guides. My locking wraps have always been on the “horizontal run of the guide foot”.

Personally I prep the feet, but just a little to facilitate a smooth transition of the thread.

You bring up a really good point about the Micro guides in your statement:
“One of the important things Micro Guides are closely tied to is a thing called balance. They have completely changed the way that I now balance my bass sticks. My reel placement has considerably been changed by these light as air creatures”

I hope the options created in reel placement by these little guides and the difference they make in balance, are not over looked by builders.
It’s not really been brought up before, but it is a definite plus.

Mark now you have done it:

You have claim on causing the addition of another marketing claim for M&Ms -

Spinning Rod Version Model SU

Put Em On The Scales Dewey , Lighten Up and now Stick Em UP!

To maximize guide height of a spinning rod -

Lighten Up and Then Stick Em Up!

Steve will find a way to splice the titanium.

I used these on the rods I have built -

Build a better rod -

[www.anglersresource.net]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2008 05:51PM by Bill Stevens.

Re - Increased cast distance. ( conventional cast style)
If you want to put your finger on just on just one specific reason its increased lure velocity.
As indicated previously in this thread & others on rod dynamics the reason for that is caused by beneficial changes to a number of parameters.
If you are seeking proof of concept for micro guides increasing cast distance you can focus on actually measuring lure velocity just after release .
Or by deduction from other parameters you can measure from a decent digital camera set on automatic multi- frame setting.
Not sure of the frame frequency , but its in the order of decimals of a second, so it will be adequate for the purpose .
You will need a lure colour with high contrast to the background you will be photographing it against ............to give yourself chance to identify the lure location & a bit of size to the lure.
Choose your background well................ say a large building with distinct construction features you can use as reference points.
- release trajectory angle is unlikely to change much ( but you can assess that from photos.)
What should be measurable is a higher arc in the trajectory as a result of higher velocity at release & longer "hang time" in the number of frames between release & splash down. from cast with a micro compared to the same rod blank / reel / line with heavier conventional guides...........at the same trajectory release angle. ( ie the angle from the horizontal in the first 10 ' of the cast ).

A bit of effort & you should be able to come up with some concrete numbers as proof of concept of higher lure velocity as a result of higher tip speed.
Analysing the actual individual parameters of the rod dynamic that contributed to the higher tip speed in the cast is another far more complex exercise altogether.

With light & less aerodynamic lures/baits the effect of "spool set line memory" with micros is a real issue exacerbated with mono / fluoro.
Clear water visibility by fish is a problem we need to address, but it doesn't mean we need to go ALL MONO / FLUORO.
In OZ we have a number of "finesse" species we target & the strike clues are varied.............. visual clues on the drop & bite sensitivity in the rod.
We very successfully go the flyfishers route in dealing with clear water situations. We retain the light PE braid / fireline and increase the length and decrease the diameter of our mono/ fluoro leader adjusting to water clarity & fish reaction very successfully.
That way we are able to retain the better casting qualities of the PE braid / fireline and its higher contrast on top of the water to optimise visual strike clues and adapt mono / fluoro leader lengths & sizes to adapt to water clarity.

Don't know if there are particular reasons why a similar approach would not work on the other side of the pond.
The other thing that such a setup does, is that the hookset distance is not reduced compared to switching to all mono / fluoro setups as there is not much of an increase in the 'stretch' of the combined PE - mono/ fluoro rig.

Re guide sizes on threadline/spinning reel guidetrains.
With limp PE braid etc that does not take a 'spool set' I have not seen any disadvantage ( but considerable advantage ) in a stripper less than 1/2 spool diameter.( but you cannot go overboard on that )
Again, the previous threads on rod dynamics identify that the dynamics are a compromise of many parameters.
With limp line you can do a lot of "choking" of the wave form of the line at the stripper without a lot of penalty......................these limp lines also enable a guide train design in such rod/reel combinations with just one intermediate transition guide to smaller running guides.
the benefits of lighter tip weight in the rod are obtained and the "package" performs better with longer cast distances & higher sensitivity.
Whilst the blank can handle larger guides at the stripper & nearby without huge penalty to the dynamics of the 'package' it is quite advantageous to minimise the weight of those guides...........so choose the lightest weight guides you can afford.
I tend to use Fuji TiSic single foot guides for that reason .................but it does hurt the pocketbook.

The only disadvantage I have found in a smaller stripper & rapid transition to small running guides on threadline/spinning rods is that the smaller guides place the line closer to the blank and in wet weather using light lure weights the line can get stuck to the blank in the transition area before the line is fully tamed.......................this is not an issue with lure weights above about 1/4 oz as the lure momentum seems able to break the water surface tension without huge penalty in casting distance...................whereas the ultralight lures just drop when the line gets stuck on a rainsoaked rod.
Just my 2C

DenisB

Jeffery, thank you waving the cape!

I think your anacronym and this topic has flushed at least one BOB from hiding!

I can even relate to some of it - I remember the kinetic energy thingy from the little red school house - relates mass and velocity squared. I mentioned earlier how long those lures will stay in the air after launch from the tip of a micro! Custom rodbuilders have long made the statement that rodbuilding was not rocket science but a better rod just may be a little closer related that we think.

If we load a lure up and fire on a similar blanks the tip velocities should be the same at point of release -

Any differences in distance lure travels must be related to total system losses in each case -

Thank you Denis



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2008 06:54PM by Bill Stevens.

Just a thought on measuring velocities. I'm sure you must have all seen one of those targets that you throw a base ball or shoot a hockey puck at and they tell you how fast it was traveling, would it also not work with a lead weight or lure? They may not be sensitive enough to get a good reading from but it could be worth a shot if someone lives close to one.

Patrick Rutledge