I am part of another site that has a small group of rod builders (mostly novice) and a few with good skills. I am a novice and lack the experience to fully draw my own conclusions. This site has enough experience to help me form my own opinions.

The issue of spine came up, and the statement that : "modern rod builders who now better understand what causes the spine and what its affect tends to be discount it and tend to mount the guides on the blanks straightest axis."

I have been watching this site and seeing answers about spine many times, and I was curious as to how many of you "modern guys" discount the spine? I actually asked a question about a year ago and I know I was told for the heavy roller guide rods that spine is less important than the straight axis. I have also seen the same to be said for spiral wrapped, but how many of you just simply pick the straightest axis?

Thanks for the feedback!

IMO the straightest axis is the best way. I quit using the spine years ago

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

We build all our rods on effective spine. It works for us, and there's some good explanations as to why, but others here will tell you it matters not at all. So I'll just say that's what we do, and given the choice our customers want it that way.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2008 12:53AM by Russ Pollack.

John,

You just got two different answers from two of the best "modern guys"! You might get another 50 answers before the night's over... You might do a search above on "to spine, or not to spine". It's one of the hot topics for debate. As for me, they've pretty much convinced me to use the straightest axis and be done with it-- on any type of rod. I'm just not that good that I can tell a significant difference...

RON.

Use the spine.

I'm getting ready to build a blank with the acid rod design. Where would you put the spine?

what exactly are you referring to when you say straightest axis? sorry im a bit of a noob

Hi John,

This is a question that I don't think will ever be fully resolved. People can't even agree on what to call it. Some people say spine and others say spline. Then after you decide what to call comes the 2nd question, do I build the blank on the effective spine or opposite it.

The best way to answer this question is to do what you feel is best.

What I do is to eye down the blank and if there is no bend or hook in the blank I will build ref. the spine/spline. If there is a bend or hook I will build so as to make the blank look better. Spining a blank is very easy to do and only takes a couple of minutes so if it makes you feel better spine it. Some blanks have a very noticable spine and others are very supple.

Hank
On The Rocks Fishing
Wells, ME.

I just got my Callaway driver back from Golfsmith after being PUREd - shaft removed, checked on a machine, and reinstalled with the spine in a specific maner. Can't wait for the weather to warm up so I can try it out!

This is probably a question without a right or wrong answer depending on your point of view and the reason for locating and using the spine. I know of one manufacture that builds using the spine because they feel it reduces the number of broken returns. Another uses the spine because the feeling is, that if that's the way the blank wants to bend then that's the way to build it. Some builders locate the spine and put it on their casting plane feeling that it helps increase accuracy in casting. Others locate guides opposite the effective spine thinking that it makes the fish work against it. The only thing I can tell you is, in my opinion, it has nothing to do with what causes a blank to twist under a load. The guides cause that. Any rod with the guides under the rod will not twist. So if eliminating twist is your reason for locating and using the spine, in my opinion you are wasting your time and would be better served to build spiral wrapped rods on the straightest axis.

John,

There has never been any evidence given that offers proof or good reason for mounting guides on the spine or opposite the spine. The whole idea that it was a good idea came from a book written in the early 1970's and which other authors then picked up on. None offered any reason for doing this other than that if you flexed a naked blank by hand (which never happens while fishing - our rods have guides on them which act as small lever arms and overcome "spine") the blank would roll to a certain location. The authors stated that utilizing the spine in the manner they recommended would prevent rod twist while fishing and create a more accurate fishing rod. Both statements have been very much disproven in actual mechanical tests over the years. For the most part, everything written about the importantance of rod spine in the various texts out there has always been based on opinion, not tests or facts. But if you repeat something often enough and long enough, it tends to become "fact." It's a hard myth for many to let go of, but it will die in the next few years. At least one publication actually somewhat recanted on their 20+ year stance on the importance of spine after our test results were printed in a very early issue of RodMaker. They too, then decided that spine has nothing to do with preventing rod twist.

Guide location has everything to do with rod twist, spine has nothing to do with it. For best accuracy, you need the straightest axis in line with your casting plane, only problem being that most of us don't always cast on the exact same plane each time. But you don't want any natural curvature being so far off line from the normal casting plane that the rod tip will travel in an arc (twist around a central axis is fine).

If you do choose to build on the spine, however, you won't hurt a thing. If it makes you feel good - go ahead and do it. That's precisely because it just doesn't matter. The one thing you never want a new builder to worry over is rod spine. Far too many shy away from building a rod because they're afraid or have been told that if they don't get this spine thing correct, their rods will twist, explode, cast to the left, etc. But none of that is the actual case. Try not to worry over it too much - it really doesn't matter.


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I want to throw something into the mix here. I build rods for tournament bass fishermen and they won't tolerate any rod that isn't an accurate casting tool. I discounted the "spine" many years ago and have never looked back. It's the most overated and uncessary part of rod building that has ever existed. It doesn't matter one whit.

But there is something else to consider. We talk about building on the straightest axis for best accuracy. Bass fishermen cast all sorts of ways. They cast upward, to the side, overhead and all manner of ways. So I try to find out what they're going to be doing with certain rods and align the staightest axis in that plane of cast. What I do on a flippin' stick won't be the same as what I do on a Swimbait rod. And since most use baitcasting reels you have to remember that most turn their wrists so the reel handles face upwards on any overhead cast. That puts the casting plane at 90 degrees to the line guides.

These are just some things to think about if you want to get really detailed and dialed in on certain technique specific rods like the bass fishermen use. Other than that I would just put the straightest axis parallel to the water. Any natural curve would be fixed so that the belly of the curve is towards the water. You won't go wrong with this set up for just about any kind of general fishing.

I'd be curious to know if anyone has considered that a blank with a notceable crook or hook in it is going to have an impact on the act of finding the so called "spine".

I was just thinking that if you pull on a crooked stick , it is naturally going to twist so as not to be fighting the Crook or hook, or whatever you want to call it.

Just a thought.

Mark

Good Morning john,
I guess you have received more information than you need. I predate Tom K. a bit. I built my first rod in 1959 and the shop that sold me the materials for that first rod told me to build along the spine. How this idea came to be is anyone's guess, butI would guess that the first fiberglass rod bank that came off a mandrel was found to have a spine and rod builders have argued about the importance of the spine ever since that time. Unfortunately all we have is anecdotal evidence. I was told that the spine arises from some aspect of the manufacturing process, but many here on the forum, indicate that that is probably wrong. I have read that some maintain it is not a mechanical or physical thing at all. All I know is whatever the cause of it, the spine is physically measurable phenomena.

As rod builders we can decide that the spine doesn't matter or it does matter. If it doesn't matter, then you can build on the spine or off the spine (straightest axis). If it does matter, then you should build on the spine. Since I learned how to build on the spine, I choose to do that. Having said that, I am beginning to think that there is no real evidence to support the claim that the spine matters. There are just too many builders building rod irrespective of the location of the spine without the rod breaking or twisting.

It would be nice that if every time a rod broke unexpectedly, that the rod was tested to see if it was built on or off the spine. This would provide some evidence about the importance of the spine. However, I doubt if that data will ever be collected.

As I said above, as a new rodbuilder at the age of 19, I bult my first rod based on what an experienced rod builder told me. You are in the same position and at least there is more than one viewpoint. And as Tom K. indicated, you need not become overly concerned about a phenomena over which we have little or no real data to make a decision. Good luck with your project.

Mike Blomme

The overall curvature of the blank does indeed affect where the "spine" is. Remember, the spine is not a thing - there is no such thing as a physical spine really, other than a flag pattern end, but that in itself is only one of about 6 or 7 manufacturing anomolies that result in what rod builders called the "effective spine." Spine is an effect, not a thing. And it only comes to the forefront when you flex a blank or rod by hand - it's not at all what happens when you load the rod via a fish attached to a line running through guides attached to the rod.

Enough twist will indeed break a rod blank and this is a good reason to build spinning and fly rods or spiral wrapped baitcasting rods. Otherwise all bait casting rods with the guides on top are going to attempt to twist regardless of where you locate the spine. But even having said that, keep in mind that all blanks are made to withstand a certain amount of torsional force. I'm not sure that putting the guides on top is ever going to be a recipe for certain disaster.

Either way, spine orientation is never going to prevent a rod from trying to twist. Guide position determines that.

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I do NOT build on spine, but rather straightest axis.

Like most, I started with the information (misinformation) that spine WAS important and should be the sole determining issue when aligning guides. While I never had an issue develop in respect to the simple spining of blanks, I did have an issue ... a very important one. I found that by ignoring the straightest axis, I built rods that would cast to the left or right, at any time when the curvature was pointed that direction.

So ... while I can not 100% disprove the idea of "spining" a rod. I can absolutely prove that ignoring the straightest axis can be more than just a visual issue.

Jim,

Your experience is exactly what our mechanical casting tests indicated insofar as the casting accuracy on badly curved blanks goes. Put that curve off to the side of the casting plane and your tip may travel in a bit of an arc. The lure goes in the direction the tip is going at the instant of release. If it travels in an arc, the tip won't be going in exactly the same direction as your casting plane.

...........

I once had the editor of a rod building publication tell me that because of the way I set up my spinning rods, that when I hooked a fish on them the rod was going to twist until the guides had rotated to the top of the rod. Yes, he sincerely believed that would happen. It should go without saying that they didn't, nor could they.

............

I'm having trouble absorbing the statement -

" For best accuracy, you need the straightest axis in line with your casting plane, only problem being that most of us don't always cast on the exact same plane each time. But you don't want any natural curvature being so far off line from the normal casting plane that the rod tip will travel in an arc (twist around a central axis is fine)."

Even if a rod is built with the tip leaning off to the side, doesn't the weight of the fly line, crankbait, or lure overcome the tip section and straighten it out anyway? I've seen people cast straight overhead and there are some that cast almost sidearm but their line/ lure still seams to be going in a back and forth motion, and eventually goes out away from them in the direction they were aiming. And if they do pitch sidearm I would assume they've learned to compenstae for it to maintain some sort of accuracy. It's my understanding that once your fly line or lure is going in a certain direction, inertia takes over and causes it to keep giong in that same direction. I can't see what affect my tip has if it's off to the side and then gets straightened out when casted.

I read an article once about baitcasting where you rotate the rod so the reel's handle is pointing up (on RH retrieve, downward on LH retrieve) during the cast which is supposedly helps prevent a birdsnest. In this case the guides would be hanging off to the side of the rod with the line shooting out the side of the tip top. Even with the rod held like this it only makes sense that the line/lure will keep going in the direction wherever it's pointed. If there's some phenomenon that would cause the line/lure to go in some other direction I'd like to know how it works. Thanks.

Tim,
I always spine a rod and mark the rod with the side having the spine.
I then eye ball the rod to see if it is straight. If it has a hook or a crook anywhere, I will first build on the straight side of the rod - while keeping the spine of rod in mind.

Most times I find that if there is a crook (slight or exagerated) the crook will often be on the same line as the spine.

However, if I find that the hook or crook is not in line with the spine - I will let the hook take preference.

I actually don't think that it makes much difference in casting direction, accuracy, or distance. However, it certainly looks much better for a client to be able to site down a rod and not see any bends in the blank, as he/she sites down the b lank.

If you build on the straight side of the blank, you will always be able to site straight down the blank. Conversely, if you have a hook or a crook, a side look at the blank could show a bit of s droop in the tip, but that is really immaterial with respect to overall look, appearance, and action of the rod.

--
For the one rod that happened to have a pretty bad hook in the blank, and when that hook happened to be at 90 degrees to the spine - and I built this early rod on the spine - I ended up having continual complaints from the client. I ended up building him a new rod on a straight blank.

In that early time, I had located some discount blanks at a significantly discounted price - but the quality was less than steller.

So, do what keeps the clients happy. Appearance is about 90% of the action in this game.

Take care
Roger

The lure will go in the direction that the rod tip is moving at the moment of release. This is why the idea of rod twist due to spine "mis-alignment" is another myth. Rotating around a central axis doesn't change the casting plane to rod tip relationship enough, if at all, to cause any accuracy problems.

Now if you have a very crooked rod blank, or one with enough overall curvature so that the rod tip tends to travel in an arc rather than any sort of a straight path, the tip may be traveling somewhere other than on your casting plane at the moment of release. We saw this enough on our casting machine to document that this was what was happening. However, notice I said if you have a very crooked or badly curved blank that this can happen. A slight curve or crook will not affect casting accuracy to any noticeable degree for many of the reasons you mentioned above.

The reason that baitcasting reels are cast with the handle "up" is twofold - first, that's the natural position your wrist must be in if it is to fully "cock." And... older baitcasting reels had a lot of moving parts that didn't disconnect - there was no such thing as "free spool." Fishermen felt that by standing the spool up on one end it tended to relieve some of that resistance when both spool ends were turning in their bushings. Upright, it was felt that the spool end spun on only one bushing and increased your casting distance. If you ever try casting one of the older casting reels, you'll find that casting it this way does indeed help.

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