I am getting ready to build a rod with some recoil guides but I noticed in the past that some of you had problems with Recoil guides grooving. Does anyone have any photos of this? I'd like to see them. Please email them to me at loafers4@earthlink.net
I did see Raymond Adams filing job but would like to see others if possible.

Thank, Jim

Jim, use the search feature for your exact title. I started the same thread 3 or 4 months ago, not a single person had actual rpoof.

I have proof in a g loomis glx bcr 803 rod that I purchased. The first three guides all have grooves in them and this rod is only 1.5 years old. I also notice when using berkley fire line with these guides, the line wears out 3 times faster due to the friction caused from the guides. I will say though that I do use recoil guides when fishing in cold weather, below 32, because there are no inserts to pop out due to freezing line.

Jonathan, can you email me a close up photo or post a photo of this?

I'd also like to see a clear photo

Jonathan,,, post the pics. This has come up something like 4 times this year I think. For some reason people have trouble believing that a relatively soft metal can groove. Of course if they didn't, you wouldn't have ceramics at all.

I dont see how this can be a soft metal are recoil and loomis crazy? I have no knowledge on this subject just asking. how soft is it? compared to a low grade ring material.

Im going to put some braid on my rod lathes pulleys and use it as a belt and run a recoil in it to see if I can grove it. Ill try it dry, wet new and used, Ill post what happens.

I have seen several "guide fly rods" of my buddies that have grooved. They were fly rods. But I have no pics because I have no reason to take a pic when i see them. Like it has been said, If some don't take our word for it that's fine. But when I see the rods again, and can remember to take a pic of them, I gonna take 5000 pics and post them just to do do so. Don't worry TOM K, I'll put them in photobucket or soemthing like that...or ya know what? I'll email all 5000 or so to Billy! LOL Just kidding Billy-but rest assured you will get several.

Paul

NiTinol alloys from what I could glean are somewhere in the 296 to 349 Vickers hardness scale depending on the manufacturer. As reported before and I believe it's also in Dale Clemens' book the 304 stainless we see most is in the 300 hardness range also. We usually see it coated with something however and a good hard chrome is in the 600 range. Thats why we see little wear on guides than heavy wear seems to happen much more quickly when the finish is worn off.
Everything is a tradeoff, you want light weight and flexibility, we have to live with the downside.
As for the subject of grooving, what benefit is there in someone here telling us that it happens if it hasn't? I've seen it myself on fly tip tops. It happens on all wire guides no surprises there.
The problem is in education, like all commercial ventures they want to only show you the benefits of their product.
I don't think anyone is warranting guides, cork, reelseats,etc. I don't think Loomis is losing any sleep over Recoil guides as all anglers should know that their rods/reels are going to need repair from time to time like any tool.

Note that this has all come up before, and you should be able to find the threads by searching.
It appears that spectra all by itself should groove little. Polyethelene is what it is made of and that would seem to have a surface hardness below that of all common guide materials. But, what becomes picked up and carried by the braid is another matter. Bits of sand, silt, mud,,, all that stuff gets into the braid and you end up with an abrasive cord. That seems to be the biggest culprit.
So if you are going to test, rub the spectra around in the mud or some fine sand and then wash it off, or run it thru some dirty water on its path to the guide. The entire smell of it is that real world usage is not what a cleam lab shows.

So are those companies crazy? Well they seem to make good money, so I guess not. They have name going for them, surely. But I don't believe anyone ever said they were the most bulletproof and durable products out there, did they? No. They pparently strive for lightness as their #1 quality, and that means that some other qualities are lower on the totem pole.

It is all about surface hardness to begin with, and then as wear begins you get into the surface thickness, substrate, and material properties. TiN is a nice hard surface for example, but thin. Take a look at TiN coated drills or bits that have been used and you should see places where the coating has worn off. It is good stuff while it lasts, but that isn't forever in all instances.

Then in your case, conside the titanium substrate. Titanium is light, has a high strength to weight ratio, and is highly corrosion resistant. But it is not as hard as steels can be, and especially not what ceramics can be. It also has a tendancy to gall, so when it starts going, it goes.

Sounds like you are looking for a magic guide. The lightest. The strongest. The most flexible. The hardest. The most wear resistant. Impervious to everything fishing can throw at it. .... it doesn't exist. You order the qualities you care about in importance and match that to what balance of qualities you can get from different guides. That's the best you can do, because nothing has all the qualities. If there was an affordable material, magic in all ways, you would see it everywhere around you and materials science folk would be out of jobs.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2007 11:58AM by Dave Hauser.

I will try to take a picture sometime but I'm not sure when I will be able to send it. I will try and email the picture tomorrow.

Why not post the pic on the Photo Page so it will always be available to everyone??

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I am not knowledgeable in the subject matter of this post, but readers should keep in mind that the Italians use string and a slurry of water and sand to cut the giant blocks of marble marble in the marble quarries.

Berkley Fire line is fusioned braided line and has a rough outer surface, so it seems to me that it could possibly groove the guides over a period of time.

Rena ( I want a PINK marble top for my kitchen counter)

I'm glad to see a few posters pointing out that titanium alloys and titanium/nickel alloys aren't particularly hard. Despite their other outstanding characteristics, they aren't very wear resistant, though maybe hard enough for many fishermen. One of the most common questions I see about titanium guides concerns dressing the feet. Apparently, the differences in machinability between titanium and ferrous alloys (ferrous metals need to be kept cool and titanium needs to be worked hot, which means that bits and cutters suited to machining steel don't work as well on titanium) has led people to think that titanium is super tough and can't be worked by hand with files and abrasives. Nothing could be further from the truth. Every titanium/ceramic or Recoil guide I have dressed was easier to work than any stainless, tungsten, carbon steel, chrome, TiN, etc guide I have ever done, and I use a small file and emery paper. Common sense would lead me to think that they would also groove easier. For many fly fishermen who use high end gear, this would not be a serious issue because they don't fish any of the several rods they often own enough in a season, or catch enough fish that run to accumulate much wear. For those that fish a lot, catch big fish, or rely on primarily one rod, I recommend harder guides than Recoils.

Rest assured, I will post the pics when I get them for all to see...

Paul

I am looking forward to seeing some of these photos. Will be interesting.

Same here.