Okay, at the risk of being labeled a troublemaker, I gotta ask . . .

General consensus on the New Guide Concept System seems to gee – haw with the last paragraph in the latest article: “. . . you can set up almost any spinning rod in just a few minutes and the results are usually right on ‘the money’ the first time out.”

Same issue, Steve Gardner’s “Vibronic Custom Rods”: “. . . the spinning rod . . . starts out with a 25mm, then moves to a 10mm, 5mm, 3.5mm, 3mm, and four 2mm guides . . . I use the New Guide Concept for sizing and spacing these guides.” And two paragraphs later: “The spinning rod, on the other hand, took 25 different guide and placement set ups before it would perform like I wanted it to.”

Six different guide sizes after 25 different set ups, not considering how many more guide sizes might have been discarded along the way in 25 different set ups.
Spooky ! How often could I expect a rod that’s such an anomaly ?


– smc –

Steve didn't write the article on the New Guide Concept. What he had to do and what you might have to do can be two entirely different things.

If you implement the system as outlined in the new article, most likely you won't have to do anything after that first set up. You might, but such a thing would be rare.

..............

I'm going to be trying the "new" new concept method on a couple of rods this weekend. My guess is that after setting up the guides on the rod, the only thing that might change is the placement and/or the size of the butt guide.

Just in case you're wondering, here's what I'll be doing:

- Step 1: Put guides (sizes and spacing) on the blank as indicated in the article.
- Step 2: Test cast
- Step 3: Move the butt guide up the blank a bit, and heave a couple of test casts.
- Step 4: Move the butt guide down the blank a bit (from the original position) and heave a couple of test casts.
- Step 5: Remove butt guide, and replace it the next larger size. Repeat steps 2-4.
- Step 6: Remove butt guide, and replace it the next smaller size. Repeat steps 2-4.
- Step 7: Record the array that produced the best casts, and enjoy a refreshing adult beverage.

I will go through this because I am a stickler for test casting -- I wanna know, before I wrap a rod, how the thing is going to perform. But my guess is that the guide array I end up with be either identical or very, very similar to what I began with (i.e. how the article tells you to set up the guides). The new method makes a whole lot of sense to me, and I'm on my way to becoming an enthusiastic convert. We'll see if my testing furthers that.

I am on my third spinner using this new concept. It is fast and easy....except for this fourth one...too short at 5'8".... lol

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve didn't write the article on the New Guide
> Concept. What he had to do and what you might have
> to do can be two entirely different things.
>
> If you implement the system as outlined in the new
> article, most likely you won't have to do anything
> after that first set up. You might, but such a
> thing would be rare.
>
> ..............


Tom-

Just curious, would it be possible to do a spinning rod with just 3 guides sizes? I dont build them, but I plan to in the new future

Thanks,
Jeffrey

In reference to 10-4 article on the vibonic rods, I loved what he did with the baitcast reel seat....I found that article intriguing and I plan to try a few of those things....

Thanks,
jeffrey

Steve Clark;

I understand your comment or question, unfortunately there is just not enough space neither in an article nor in this post to include every little detail that went in to setting up this particular spinning rod. .

I was sharing how many times I played with the guides more to let people know- it was jut worth the effort.

I could have spent a lot less time on it and obtained great results, but being the perfectionist I am. I continued tweaking until I found what I believe to be the best set up for me with what I had to work with.

Part of the 25 setups involved starting with larger guides and working me way down to what I ended up with.

I could have passed this step altogether, but wanted to know how the rod would perform with a more traditional set up, so that I would have a starting point to compare it with.

I could have also used less sizes maybe have eliminated the one 3mm guide in favor of another 2mm guide. But I did not have another 2mm guide to work with.

Bill Batson had sent these to me experiment with and because they are special order item for his company I did not want to wait the extended time it would take to order one more guide. Nor did I want to take advantage of Mr. Batson’s generosity,
and willingness to support me and this industry in these experiments.

One of the reasons it did not take the same amount effort with the bait casting rod is that I took what I had learned from the spinning rod, and used that to eliminate much of the work on the bait caster.

Now that I have a better idea of what I am doing and looking for, I don’t anticipate it taking 25 times to set up another rod with similar size guides. But if it does and I get the same results. “It will be so worth it”

I hope this helps you to understand were I was coming from. If you have any other questions please feel free to ask.

Jeffrey,

If you read the earlier article on selecting guide sizes, you will find that it is indeed possible and even likely to set up a spinning rod with just 3 different guide sizes (casting and fly rods almost never need more than 3 sizes). But this would be on the lighter rods with smaller reels where your choke guide is going to be the 3rd guide out from the reel. In most cases with spinning rods, you'll need 4 sizes.

..................

I rarely use more than 3 guide sizes on any rod (spining, casting, trolling)

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Mike,
That's cuz you're RETIRED and nobody can make you .. except your wife!
Dave

You got it, Dave!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Steve, I enjoyed your article, the one thing I was interested in was the arbors to glue up the reel seat. Now, I know what you use from speaking to you off line, but I was hoping to see a little more description of how to glue the seat to the blank to see what others thought.

PS - I'm going to be ordering more of those tiny guides, let me know what you need - I was waiting for a price before I let you know, should have one by tomorrow.

Billy;
I assume you’re referring to the casting rod. I use seats that are reamed out to fit tight to the blank. So there is no need for an arbor there
I use an arbor for mounting the graphite tubing to the backend of the seat and to the butt of the rod and tubing.

I will email you

I like the idea of smaller guides for a number of reasons. The main ones being that the lower mass of the smaller guides will result in the rod having a higher resonant frequency and higher tip velocity, the lower mass will result in higher sensitivity and the smaller guides will result in less torque as well. But it will require more care in setting up the guides so as to get a nice straight line path and minimize the friction between the line and the guides. In fact if there is any crookedness in the blank it may not be possible to get a straight line path.
I do have a couple of questions though about the rods shown in RodMaker. First why would you use the graphite tubing for a rod that you want to be light and sensitive when the tubing is significantly heavier than cork and I also do not see any real advantage in off setting the tubing. That just seems to me to be extra work.

Steve can and should answer you on this and I'm sure he will. My observations in handling the rods are that the offset handle makes the gripping of the rod far more comfortable and drops the thumb squarely on the rod blank when the hand is held in a natural postion.

The graphite tubing is going to be far more durable than cork, you can wrap the reel directly to it and because it's hollow the difference in weight is going to be very slight.


................

Tom,
The offset handle may be somewhat more comfortable for some but though I have not tried it I cannot believe that it is really much more comfortable.
As far as the tubing is concerned the fact that it is hollow will actually reduce the sensitivity not increase it because a shim is required and there will be losses at the junction of the shim and the blank and the shim and the tubing. At each of these junctions part of the energy continues into the next material but part of the energy is reflected back toward the source. In the case of a cork handle there is only one junction not two. But the bigger problem with the tubing, both graphite and Texilium, is that it has significantly higher mass, it weighs more, and the rods sensitivity will decrease in direct proportion to the increased mass. There have been several posts here recently about the weight of this tubing and in each case people weighed it and found it to be over 50% heavier than cork. A reel seat will weigh more than an equal length of the tubing but not nearly enough to offset the rest of the tubing.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jeffrey,
>
> If you read the earlier article on selecting guide
> sizes, you will find that it is indeed possible
> and even likely to set up a spinning rod with just
> 3 different guide sizes (casting and fly rods
> almost never need more than 3 sizes). But this
> would be on the lighter rods with smaller reels
> where your choke guide is going to be the 3rd
> guide out from the reel. In most cases with
> spinning rods, you'll need 4 sizes.
>
> ..................

Tom-

Thanks. I am trying some new to me things, and one big one is the reduction in guide sizes. Appreciate the help.

Thanks,
Jeffrey

Emory;
Form what I have seen of knowledgeable builders including myself we take the time to make sure our guides are straight. Its just part of building a quality product.

Apart from that if the line were a rigid item like the blank itself I could see this (a guide being slightly off) being a problem. But since the line is not and has give and flexibility and sags and moves around freely through the guides I personally think it would be a mute point.

If keeping the line in an exact straight path was that important then spiral wrapped rods including the ones I've built with tiny guides would not function very well, because on
These types of rods there are two or three places were angles are created by off setting guides in the transition from the top of the rod to the bottom. But we all know different from actual experience.

Also I have yet to find a perfectly strait blank on which to put the tiny guides. So I would have to say based on practical applied application, if built correctly crookedness in the blank makes little difference in performance.

Emory I could sit here and argue the fact of why I know that graphite is more sensitive then cork and that I can engineer a rod with graphite tubing as light or lighter then cork, and you could reply with a bunch of mathematical equations as to why you think it is not. So to save us both a bunch of typing and others a bunch of reading, below are a few quotes from other knowledgeable builders who have handled not only my rods, but thousands of others and offered there opinions. Not based on theory - but actual hands on experience.

Tom Kirkman; (from editors page this issue)
“My initial impressions were that he had created some extremely lightweight rods – even lighter than other rods which I thought were about as light as anyone could make them.”

Bill Batson; CEO of Batson Enterprises-Rainshadow/Forecast/Alps
“Really unique, I’d just like to know how you got them so sensitive”

Karry Batson; Batson enterprises
“These are the most sensitive rods I’ve ever held”

Duane Richards; Custom rod builder and owner of DR’s fishing site posted this on his site after returning hum from the ICRB expo
“On the cutting edge of the sport, heck your work is the cutting edge of rod building!! The rods you had there were just outstanding
RH and I were discussing it on the way home and we decided that your rods were the highlight of the entire show …no kidding!…..congratulations on your work, the blew my mind

And your friend Billy Vivona; Custom rod builder and Author
I was really impressed with your rods. While I get a lot of oohs and aahs for how my rods look. I put just as much effort in making the rods I build light and functional. Hopefully the techniques you are employing catch on. I really like how the rods feel with the smaller guides. They are definitely the wave of the future. It was actually one of the highlights of the show to see your rods. (corrected for spelling)

Now I shared these comments not because I feel that my work is superior to any other builders , but to let you know that if you will set aside some of your theories for a moment and try some of these techniques to can have the same results.

As far as offsetting the handles. You’re right IT IS EXTRA WORK, and if it didn’t make a substantial difference in the performance and comfort of the rod I for one wouldn’t waste my time doing it. And until you’ve handled one you WON'T “see any real advantage in off setting the tubing”.

Also when the blank is set against the edge of the graphite tubing there is just one junction between the blank and the tubing. It also travels a far less distance then through the cork to he palm of the hand. Seeing the thickness of the tubing is minute.



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 08/17/07 06:53AM by Steve Gardner.




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2007 07:01AM by Steve Gardner.

"A reel seat will weigh more than an equal length of the tubing but not nearly enough to offset the rest of the tubing".
Emory;
Have you weighed it to see or is this just an assumption?

Emory Harry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as the tubing is concerned the fact that it is hollow will actually reduce the sensitivity not increase it because a shim is required and there
> will be losses at the junction of the shim and the blank and the shim and the tubing. At each of these junctions part of the energy continues into
> the next material but part of the energy is reflected back toward the source.

> But the bigger problem with the tubing, both graphite and Texilium, is that it has significantly higher mass, it weighs more, and the
> rods sensitivity will decrease in direct proportion to the increased mass.

With the tubing offset and mounted directly onto the blank, in such a way that your fingers are actually on the rod blank itself with zero junction points, and all that "heavy weight" of the graphite tubing behind where your fingers are touching the blank where you've said yourself weight at the back of the rod has less of a determination on how sensitive the rods are - how can you make a statement like that? You contradict yourself just to put down another builder's technique/skill/etc's. There is a lot more to rodbuilding than sensitivty - ANY "extra" weight the tubing, thread and epoxy adds is more than made up for by the total comfort when holding the rod. But since you cannot apply quantum physics to comfortability - you totally throw that out of the equation.

Steve G:

10 – 4, Good Buddy ! The lay–out of the article . . . casting rod first, spinning rod second . . . gave me the impression the spinning rod took 25 setups AFTER having set up the casting rod successfully. Makes a lot more sense knowing it took place in reverse. Nor did it register that you were employing ‘next generation’ microscopic guide sizes. It’s all I can manage to tie on 6s, sometimes 8s, I’d have to find my jeweler’s loupe to prep and tie on 3s, much less 2s. I hope 25 different setups didn’t involve your having to tie the 2s and 3s on 25 different times !

My apologies for having stirred up such a hornets nest . . . seems there was a whole passel of folks on the porch just waiting for someone to open this door a crack !


– smc –