On Steve's rods, the blank resides directly against the inside of the handle. Any shim just takes up space below and is rather tiny and of little significance (yes this still affects sensitivity for a number of other reasons, but now we're getting into areas where the practical difference is nil).

In my hand the rods were subjectively more comfortable. The diameter of the handle and the configuration also fall in line with what most bio-mechanical ergonomics studies say is not only more comfortable, but allows the user to apply more force with less effort.

.................

Mr. Clark;

No need to apologize for stirring up a hornets nest.
With every new idea and concept comes controversy. When people are used to doing things one way, they get comfortable in what they do, and when they market what they do as being superior to other methods or ideas. Then some one comes along with a different ideas or methods it challenges what they know and do.

Tom made the comment in a previous post before this current issue even came out that "it was bound to stir up some controversy" because he understands what happens when something new comes along.

I'm a plumbing contractor by trade and when plastic water lines came out you would not believe the controversy among plumbers. Now you can't keep them away from the stuff.

Christopher Columbus had the same problem when he tried to convince the over educated but under informed that the world was round. Controversy is just part of moving foreword, as this craft advances to new levels and in different directions.

Just like Tom Kirkman has had to deal with so much controversy about how he has handled and built the ICRB Expo. The person or who takes the first step gets hit with the most tomatoes.

Steve,
Yes, I did measure the difference in the weight of the tubing, a reel seat and an equal length of cork but I did not remember what the numbers were so I made the measurements again this morning. I have both graphite tubing and Texilium here so I measured both. Here are the numbers. The reel seat is 4 1/4 inches long so all of the pieces of the other materials were the same length.
13.5mm Batson Blank Through Reel seat=0.846 oz.
1" by 4 1/4" Cork=0.273 oz. (1/2" hole in center)
1' by 4 1/4" Texilium=0.472 oz.
1" by 4 1/4" Graphite Tube=0.411 oz.
I think that the smaller guides are a good idea. I was not criticizing them. I was just attempting to point out that the smaller the guide the more care that must be used when aligning them. Any change in line direction results in a loss of momentum and any contact between the line and the guides results in losses as well due to friction.

Billy,
I did not contradict myself. I have said several times that if the rod is held at a low angle so that the line goes directly through the guides to the reel and the fisherman's hand it is the total mass of the rod and reel that determines sensitivity. But at a higher angle where the energy in the fish's bite is transferred through the guides to the rod and through the rod to the fisherman's hand then it is not only the total mass but the distribution of the mass that is also important in determining sensitivity and I think that the major point of this type of rod construction was increases senitivity. I would explain this in more detail to you but I do not think that you would understand.
Even if the graphite is directly touching the blank there still is one joint between the two materials that results in reflections but again this may be difficult for you to understand.

Tom,
You are right, if the graphite tubing is in direct contact with the blank that eliminates most of the problem with the shims but it does not eliminate the difference in the mass between the tubing and cork.
I cannot argue with your subjectivity and I have not tried this configuration. But generally I prefer to stick with facts as opposed to subjectivity.

Emory Harry Wrote:
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> Even if the graphite is directly touching the blank there still is one joint between the two
> materials that results in reflections but again this may be difficult for you to understand.

Actually what is difficult for me to understand is how you can post something like that, knowing there is only 1 reflection between the blank & tubing, yet cork has 2 reflections. Not to mention the loss of sensitivity as the vibration is lost once it hits the pits in the cork. And that each cork ring has to be glued up to each other, adding quite a bit of weight in the form of glue or epoxy.

The amount of overnitpicking to teh point of exhaustion makes me wonder - how bad of a fisherman must people be to worry about losing sensitivity through a .001" glue line.

Billy,
When the cork is in direct contact with the blank there is only one junction or discontinuity and one reflection.
The pits in the cork and the also the glue are extremely small in comparison with the wavelength of any vibration that is the result of the fish's bite and therefore they have virtually no effect except to the degree that they affect the overall mechanical impedance of the material and the difference in the mechanical impedance of the materials is what determines the size of the transmitted and reflected energy.
I am sorry that I brought this up. I was not attempting to put these rods down. My only points were, why would you use the heavier tubing on a rod that you were trying to maximize the sensitivity and that the smaller guides while definitely offering advantages also had disadvantages.

> When the cork is in direct contact with the blank there is only one junction or discontinuity and one reflection.

"yet cork has 2 reflections"

That is my fault, I made a mistake in what I just said, sorry about that. What I was trying to get at was Cork & the tubing glued direct to the blank, is they have to have the same junction/discontinuity/reflection - the epoxy which bonds them to the blank.

Outside of someone being a hack and not being able to align guides, what disadvantages are there in using the small guides? The one thing I've noticed is that tehy are actually more durable than larger fly guides since they dont' get "stuck" on everything. I've yet to wrap the rod with size 1 or 2.5's, but I have a few with size 4 & 4.5's. The one disadvantage I have is that I cannot use a long Mono leader, which I often have to for the fishing I do. NO knot clearance. Outside of that, the obvious disadvantage is loss of casting distance, which I haven't done any side by side casting with other rods, but I have cast with it enough to know it casts far enough for the type of fishing I do, but without doign aside by side analysis and data recording of test casts with a few set ups, Im not going to say they cast as far as rods with larger guides.

Building a fishing rod requires that we compromise in many areas. In order to have the very lightest rod possible, we might have to sacrifice something in the area of ergonomics. Building the most comfortable fishing rod means we might have to add a little additional weight. Building the most beautiful rod means we might have to give up something else.

The key to a good custom rod is being able to add more pros than cons; to be able to marry all the things we need or want in a fishing tool without giving up too much of one thing to get another. Very often, each aspect of a fishing rod works against another aspect. So we seek to combine things in such a way that the final product gives us most of what we want within the confines of the practical use we intend it to use it for.

.............

Obviously you should only use the smallest guides that will still do what you need to do, which I believe is what you just alluded to. On Steve's rods and for his type of fishing, the very small guides are a plus. If they wouldn't pass his line or knots then they would be a poor choice. But using the smallest guides that will still perform the required task will result in better casting distance as more of the energy you impart to the rod will be used to cast the lure rather than to start and stop the rod. The same with retrieving the lure or setting the hook.

..............

Tom, I think there is a point where teh guides can get too small, where the line is choked as it passes through & there is an increase in the amoutn of friction. That's the concern with going as small as Steve has here. Having spoken to him, he has only encountered one area in which teh smaller guides did not cast as well as he had hoped them to. I 100% agree with waht you just posted, and what Steve as written about regarding smaller guids casting better, but since I've done no testing I cannot say 100% that is the case, and I also don't know how small is too small to where the line is impeded as it passes from guide to guide....[www.rodbuilding.org]

Emory;
I agree 100% with your statement

“I cannot argue with your subjectivity and I have not tried this configuration. But generally I prefer to stick with facts as opposed to subjectivity”.

And until you have handled, used, or built one of these rods using the same techniques and materials I have used. You won’t have the facts. All you can do is use supposition or subjectivity in your discussions.

At the same time Mr. Kirkmans subjectivity is based on the fact that he has handled the rods in question.

Thank you for the weights you posted. What brand products are you weighing I have found much difference in the weight of tubing from one manufacturer to another. And I don’t use the Texilium at all





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2007 12:28PM by Steve Gardner.

I've cast a few rods from time to time. I also tried out Steve's at the show. I watched him 1st make what I concider a VERY long cast with his creation, then I tried it with near the same results. I was completely impressed with his design and craftsmanship. Like I already said, "state of the art". I plan on using a few of his ideas on a build for myself one of these days. Like many have said, I too REALLY LIKE the smaller guides. I was thinking -scary I know!- that Steves smaller guides may be gripping the line a little better on the cast and adding a tiny bit of advantage in casting? Kinda like a fly rod shooting the line. Most bass fishing rods that I make could benifit greatly by the loss in weight. I hope as Steve creates the future that one of the guide makers will adopt his smaller guides and offer them to us as builders. Matter of fact I'm looking forward to it!

DR, Fuji makes them already. I'm waiting on pricing before posting here to let anyone who is interested order them.