The technique as outlined in the magazine has some "tricks" that will help tremendously in this area. I can get sufficient coverage in just 3 to 4 coats. It requires some "gelling" of the adhesive prior to application.

We're not really talking about gluing guides to a rod blank. It's a process of encapsulating the guide foot, much in the same way that thread does. We're just using a different medium.

..............

Bill;

I take pride in my workmanship, my craft and my ability to satisfy the customer in the way he / she WANTS the rod to look. If that is what you call marketing, then so be it. YES, Bill, you are marketing something. The looks and design of the rod that you sell to your customers. If that is what they want, go for it. You say you have an allergy to the epoxy that is used to coat the threads, not the thread itself. So, in all reality you could put the coating you use now over thread, right?. If someone asks me to build a rod without thread, will I build it for them? the jury is out on that for the time being.

Tom

I understand about looking at new ideas, and putting them in RodMaker I like seeing new ideas just as much as the next person. I enjoyed reading the artical. You produce a great magazine and bring something to the rod building world that no other can. keep those articals comming.

Mark Syck

SYCKO Custom Rods
There Are No Limits To The Imagination

Hi everyone, I was reading the article on thread-less guide wraps. I was wondering about the alignment of guides, it seems to me they would be a one shot deal, they end up where they are placed at the moment or couple seconds after they are set in place. I wish I could set the guides in place and leave it at that. I spend more time aligning guides after they are wrapped than it takes to wrap the guides in the first place. The thread allows me final adjustment of the guides. I think maybe I put to much into the final alignment and should not spend so much time making sure the are as aligned as I could possibly get them. I use electrical heat shrink tube cut into small bands, wrap up to the small band and carefully remove it, I find I always have guides that need adjusting after they are wrapped, I know wrapping the guides will turn the guide one direction or the other most of the time, needing to be adjusted after it is wrapped. I think thread-less guide wraps would stay put for most rods, but I know I would never be happy with my original placement, so thread-less guide wraps would not work for myself. I am sure that with the right technique they would work well and could align great, but just not for me I am afraid. My rod would end up looking like a new spiral wrap of some sort. Have a great day, Rich.

Sure they will. Just align the guides before you apply the PG. The bands and toothpicks will hold them exactly where you want them.

It's no different than what you do before you apply your epoxy over the thread - you align the guides because once the epoxy is on there it's a... one shot deal. Aligning the guides prior to the PG application is no different than aligning them before you apply epoxy to your threaded guide wraps.

Mick probably put it best - this is just an alternative in guide attachment methods. It works, and works quite well. Whether or not it's something you might want to use is up to you.

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Hi Rich - I am wondering what article you read before you made your post - was it the Rodmaker article? The methods and very clear pictures were included as to how the alignment is done to keep the guides in place during the encapsulation process. I really would be interested to know if you are referring to the Rodmaker magazine text. If we missed on this point and did not fully explain the methods I sure would like to know.

Hi Bill, I want to say I am referring to the article in RodMaker, I think it is a great article, something different and worth a try. I just was thinking that maybe the guide would tend to shift when lifting to apply a tiny dot of adhesive, then if it does, you do not have a lot of time to realign it. Great photos and article, maybe the article made it seem to easy. I think my problem is I take more time than needed to align guides before epoxy. I will have to try the thread-less guide wrap and see if I end up with a happy guide alignment. I think the article is very well done, just wanted to say I may not have what it takes to complete a thread-less guide wrap as well aligned as with using thread, was my concern. Have a great day, Rich.

Rich,

When you lift the guide foot and put the tiny spot of epoxy there, you will have about 20 minutes time to align it. Hopefully that will be enough. But don't use something like 5-minute epoxy - that won't leave you enough time to get the alignment where you want it. And remember, that tiny spot of adhesive is only there to hold the guide in the alignment you prefer. It's not what keeps the guide on the blank after the fact.


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Neat concept and I will probably try it. My main concern (and one that hasn't really been brought up is guide repair. PG is like iron so when you get a busted ring or crushed guide, what then??? Assuming that you can get the guide off, how do you get the residual PG off without taking any finish with it? Since there is no thread, you can't hide anything.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I was waiting for someone to ask this. PG is tough stuff. But we've got a follow up article coming on how to handle any neccesary repairs on these type threadless wraps.

.............

So that means I can quit playing with repairs too... should have known. hahaha

Mike, repairs are a bit more difficult than with standard wraps, but not terribly so, at least how I've been doing them. Very little PG has to be removed and reapplied to get original strength and look. Not something I'd want to do a lot of, but in some ways, it can beat trying to match threads and wrap designs. Looking forward to the next article to see if there's something different than what I've been doing.

Would standard guide foot adhesive work to afix and align guides? If I am understanding the article right the guide bonding is achieved by the Permagloss.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

This technique really caught my eye when I got my copy of RM. While I enjoy reading all of the posts above, I think some, maybe me, are missiing the point. This is not for everyone or for every rod. Just as complicated weaves are not for everyone or every rod. However this is something new that will definately cause a few more rods to be sold. Is it going to be a huge thing in the custom rod building industry? Who knows. I tend to think that we aren't going to see these rods on every corner of the river. But I can tell you that I will be able to sell a good number of fly rods "wrapped" this way. And I'm betting that the bass guys will be interested too. It would probably be hard to sell me on the fact that there is much of a weight issue here. In my humble opinion, this is an asthetics issue and one that some of us will like and some won't. I happen to not like black thread wraps on rods. I'm pretty sure that I can't convince any of you who do like them that they aren't a good idea. I am turning as fast as I can to get my rod bench clear so I can try one of these.

Jeff Hunter

Weight reduction of all parts of the rod was an initial goal. Rich Forhan's split rear grip, no foregrip, cut down reel seat, foam arbors, optimizing tip guide placement spacing, titanium frame guide frames coupled with Sumo Adhesive as a replacement for two part epoxy reduced the overall weight of the rod when compared to my typical construction practice. The real funny thing is that when experienced tournament bass fisherman pick one up they comment on how light the rod feels but not one has picked up on the no thread until it was pointed out.

I'm going to Wal-Mart this afternoon. I'll look in the fishing section for a six pack of Swampland Light rods.

Joe Douglas

I have read and reread the article and I have a few questions. What do you consider 5 to 8 coats? Is each pass of the brush a coat? Is the rod turning as with epoxy? Article did not state. Sorry to sound picky, but I am going to build one of these rods and I just want to make sure of the process before I start.

John that is a very good question. The Perma Gloss is a very thin liquid when removed from a new bottle. Instead of using a finite number of coats it might be better to describe a thickness of the material encapsulating the guide. If you are comfortable with how one coat of High Build standard two part epoxy on top of thread looks like that is your target. Ralph has told me that Perma Gloss behaves differently in different places. I got lucky bacause the humidity where I work is normally above 80%. Under those condtions the Perma Gloss does not tend to bubble when drying. On all of the rods I have built I apply one thin coat right out of the can and wait a couple of hours for the Perma Gloss to thicken before starting to build the thickness I am looking for. I used as many as 12 coats of the material to get the thickness desired. The photography is poor but the rod in the photo link in the previous thread had 10 coats. Tom has used fewer coats to get where he wanted to go and I suspect he had the experience and nerve using Perma Gloss wait for a longer period of evaporation time than I did. I am calling a coat a full circumference while the rod is turning. I did apply on a wrapper at about 20 rpm for approximately two minutes to keep any sagging to a minimum. If you intend to do a rod work a test piece in your shop to check out the evaporation times and drying time for the Perma Glossbefore you start with a rod.

....balderdash and ballyhoo!!! (blecchhh!!)

For all the newer builders to this forum. Stick to tradition and wrap a rod, don't glue it. I'm still dumbfounded that it took up a couple of pages in RodMaker....its just not rodbuilding, rodcrafting, or rodmaking, in MY opinion. Its more like RodGlueing, or an aspect thereof. Sure, it has its place somewhere. I just don't SEE it, overall.

For all of you that are ordering your Permagloss to experiment with the superlight, grain saving technology.............heed the ventilation warning on the label and protect yourself. No smoking, open flames, use proper ventilation. If your tongue starts to tingle...."here's your sign", that the ventilation ain't working.

Threadless?? Just plain old breaks tradition and Issac Waltons back.

Mike



NERB that types with a bar of Ivory soap in his mouth.

Bill,
Thanks for your responce. There are 2 consepts discussed on this topic-1) the lightest, most sensative rod one can build and 2) the more decorative or artestic rod one can build. The next step will be to add marbeling!

If you put Perma Gloss on as thick as Bill suggests, equal to one coat of epoxy over thread, you will not have a rod that is lighter and more sensitive than one that is wrapped. In fact, it will be heavier and less sensitive. The Perma Gloss is much heavier than the thread. Granted the Perma Gloss will soak into the thread to some degree making the thread heavier but it still will not be as heavy as an equal volume of the Permaglos itself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2006 09:21PM by Emory Harry.

These don't have to be wrapless - we have been taking off the underwrap for ages and simply overwrapping the guides to save weight etc. We now can bring the underwrap back if we wish to and use this method over the top.
Everyone take a cold shower -
To the traditionalists it's just another option - if it becomes popular then so be it, who cares - just keep doing what you are doing. If it doesn't catch on it is still an option - I am also conservative in nature but I certainly don't wish to stimey innovation - all power to those that like to experiment.
This process would go GREAT with those "Reel seat-less" reel seats (Puggles) that Myles Boon brought up ages ago - a real rod with the guides and the reel seat "just sitting there in mid air" [www.rodbuilding.org]
PLEASE the first one to combine these processes - post a pic
How are the PUGGLE's going Myles (Puggles - a stainless steel device to make the hidden reel seat)
R