I can’t help but wonder if anyone out there, besides me, is NOT hooked on “Spiral Wraps”. Before I go on, I’m not trying to start a controversy or an argument or even a civilized debate. I’m sure some well intentioned Samaritan out there will be tempted to save me from myself.

I’m a retired mechanical designer and I understand the mechanics and advantages of the “spiral” in a “winching” mode. I think the benefits of the “spiral” are much more significant to salt water fishing where heavy loads are encountered. However, I do have a problem (admittedly psychological) with the line making a 180 degree circle (spiral) around the rod. Of course it doesn’t circle or spiral, but travels in sort of a straight line from guide to guide and with some very slight angle from the butt guide to the bumper guide and then to the rest of the guides. And I know there isn’t much more friction involved than a conventional setup.

Since I do far more casting than catching, I prefer to have the path of my line travel “straighter”or more efficiently toward the rods tip. I again admit it’s probably more psychological than actual as the line is really never straight and the degree of friction is negligible with either system. In fact, since some infinitesimal amount of additional friction might be incurred with the spiral system, I reasoned that I can reduce the size of my butt guide without any measurable increase in friction and benefit some small amount of weight savings.

Speaking of weight savings, “spiral Wrap” advocates will point out that the “conventional” system needs more guides to keep the line off the blank, resulting in more weight where it’s needed least. SO WHAT if the line does contact the blank? It only happens when in a winching mode and won’t hurt a thing! Remember, the catch/release ratio is pretty lopsided.
As far as torque goes (again in the winching mode)…. although it is there, it is negligible for freshwater fishing gear. I’m sure it would be a factor in heavy salt water fishing.

I’m not trying to promote a movement back toward the “conventional” system, but I would like to know if I’m the only dinosaur around here. If you are out there and fear reprisal (as I should), you can email me direct (ha ha!).

P.S. I forgot to mention that spiral wraps look funny…..just kidding.

I still struggle with some of the theory, but know that in use that I like the performance of the spiral better; and after one year, I even think it looks, well, BETTER!

I only build the simple spiral, I LIKE the "WOW!" factor when someone sees one of my casters....and it offers something that can't be bought over the counter in any rod.......it's CUSTOM....

DR

I can't give away a spiral wrapped rod. My friends which I build for understand the benefits of it but wouldn't be caught dead with "that funny looking spirally rod". Some people just refuse to try something new.

Have you tried to lend one of your own to someone and let them try it. This has worked for me a couple of times. Once they use it, they don't want anything else. I have also done some side by side comparisons between conventional wrapped and spiral wrap as far as casting distance goes. Both rods cast the same. I think it was Tom K in another post was saying that actually the air causes more resistance to the line then the line guides themselves do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2006 02:59PM by Mike Sledden.

Jim:

You forgot about the most important drawback to spirals guided rods. check out my responce to the thread below "Spiral wraps effect on casting distance" check out my memeber photo gallery under my name ("C" for Chris) for a visual example of what I am talking about.. I think spiral wraps are great dispite this inheriant happenstance

Jim,

The line doesn't circle around the rod, nor does it make any sort of circle. At least not with the better spiral wrap systems. The line follows a mostly straight path and simply passes by the rod one side. "Spiral Wrap" is probably a misnomer in this case. The line doesn't, or shouldn't. spiral around anything.

In many instances, the line path on a good spiral wrap is straighter than that of a regular guides on top rod.

If your line is making a circle around the rod, then you need to utilize a better spiral wrap system that allows the straight line path that the line prefers.

I suppose I should ask, although I think I already know the answer - did you not see the article on the "Simple Spiral" in a past article in RodMaker? You'll have a hard time getting a straighter line path than that with any system.

.........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2006 04:39PM by Tom Kirkman.

Jim, Tom brings a spiral wrap demo device to the BIG show each year. It's really amazing. There are two bass rods each wrapped differently. One with conventional guides on the top and one with the simple spiral wrap. They both have a very straight line path. The simple spiral has the line just pass the rod on the side. It only has to deflect a minor amount to get by the rod. The line doesn't go in any sort of circle. It's almost arrow straight.

These are bass rods mind you, and they only have something like, what, thirteen ounces or a pound on them?? And yet the effect is VERY strong. You have to try to spin the conventional rod back upright to believe the amount of effort it takes. So even on a bass rod fighting itsy bitsy one and two pound bass, a good deal of the effort you are exerting is going into keeping the rod upright.

If you go to the show you really need to play with the device a bit. It will really open your eyes. I built one from the plans in Rodmaker and use it on my customers and nearly all quickly see the light and "go spiral!"

I think it may make a difference how you fish on the usefulness of the spiral wrap. I use a spinner bait allot for fishing my tip is almost always down and cranking the bait back towards me. I would think that in this case it would make more sense to have the guides on top as 90% of the time is spent casting and retrieving and if I'm lucky I'll catch a fish on 10% of the casts. If the tip is down and you are retrieving the lure the spiral wrap tip top would be on the wrong side of the retrieve and cause the rod blank to torque and it would not have a natural bend. It would not make much sense to spiral wrap the rod for spinner baits or minnow imitations. I could see a usefulness of a spiral if you use it for jigging, deadsticking or worming but like everything else, all rods have different uses. Mark

Tom,
I realize what you’re saying about the line not circling or spiraling around the rod, but the reel is still 180 degrees from the tip top. As you say, “It follows a mostly straight path by the rod on one side”, but it still has to get “around” the blank. Granted, even the “conventional” system encounters slight angles in the line path depending on the position of the reel’s line guide when a cast is made.

As I said previously, the reasons for my preference is probably more psychological than anything else. Whatever my perceived disadvantages are to the “spiral” system, they are not an acceptable trade off to the advantages of having the guides on the bottom in the “winch” mode. It’s that “cast to catch” ratio thing again.

Like many of us who build our own rods, I have some unique theories that some might find strange (for lack of a better word), but I suppose that building our own rods allows us to prioritize as we see fit. I no longer sell any of my rods, but I’ve found that I’m far more difficult to please than any buyer might be.

Anyway, thanks for trying to save me from myself. Sometimes I tell my wife “DON’T HELP ME!...but sometimes I don’t mean it.

Duane,

I don’t think anyone seeing my rods experiences a “wow!” factor, but they would see some unique features, which may or may not impress them.

Not really, Jim. Forget about the position of the rod or the tiptop - where is the line in relation to the reel? Virtually the same place. You're just picturing all the components and how they're positioned. The line doesn't care if the ring is on top of the tiptop frame or underneath it, it's only concerned with the ring itself, not how that ring is being supported.

In fact, with most guides on top rods, the line is pulled down to the butt guide, then angled back up a bit to stay on course with the next guide. It's not exactly a straight line path. Not bad, but no better (nor worse) than what you'd have with the simple spiral.

You don't have to be in "winch" mode to see the benefits. The line wants to be on the bottom on the rod, even with something like a lightweight bass rod. If you were to fasten your guides with something that would allow them to slip and move, and then put a little pressure on the rod, the guides will slip or spin to the bottom. Shawn is correct, the amount of effort required to keep your reel upright, even on a small bass is way more than you might imagine. Until you can compare the two side by side in a fixture that removes all the other elements, you can't begin to imagine the difference. At some point I'm going to attach a torque wrench at the butts of the rods and measure the difference with some quantifiable numbers. Sure, it'll be much higher on the big game and salwater stuff, but it'll still be a good percentage difference on the lightweight bass stuff too.

There is no practical difference in casting distance or ease between the two,

.......................

Jim, Mark,
I do not want to get into what the advantages and disadvantage are again. It has been discussed a number of times but there is at least one more that believes that both conventional and spiral wraps each have advantages AND disadvantages and each approach is appropriate in some circumstances and also not appropriate in other circumstances..

Tom,
The amount of effort that it takes to keep the reel upright to resist torque, is zero if the reels mass is centered over the center axis of the rod. Unless the reels mass is to one side or the other there is no torque because there is no moment arm. As you know torque is force times moment arm.

The guides are moment arms. Under load, there will be torque and the rod, and the reel, will spin to the bottom. In order to keep the reel upright, you must keep the rod upright. To keep the rod upright will take some amount of effort if there is a load being applied to the rod via the line.

Beyond that, no casting reel has its weight divided evenly from side to side. Any conventional wrapped rod will spin upside down just from the uneven weight of the reel. So will a spiral wrapped rod, until that is, it's loaded. Once loaded, the reel on the spiral wrapped rod will spin to the top. And... it doesn't take much load to cause this to happen. This is probably one of the most amazing things that fishermen witness when watching a spiral wrapped rod in action.

The only disadvantage to a spiral warp, that I've ever been aware of, is that is does not appear "normal." This scares off a lot of people mostly because they are not used to the way it looks. The custom builder who wishes to sell spiral wrapped rods needs to educate his or her customers on the functiional benefits it offers over conventional wrapped rods, against only one disadvantage - it looks "different."

..........

I have to get in on this. I’d like to hear of some real disadvantages to a good spiral wrapped rod. Anyone????? Please don’t tell me that they won’t cast as far because they will and do. Please don’t tell me that they twist, because they don’t. Please don’t tell me that they’re less sensitive because they’re just as sensitive as anything else.

I have built hundreds of spiral wrapped rods from light bass to heavy saltwater pier and boat rods. They ALWAYS lessen the load on the angler. Even the light bass and freshwater rods have to be held upright by the fishermen or they will flip upside down. NOT SO with the spiral wrapped rod. The harder the fish pulls the more relaxed the fisherman can be. You can open your rod hand, just letting the rod sit in your palm and the reel will sit nice and pretty right up on top!

If spiral wrapped rods are flawed in any way, then so are spinning rods. And yet almost anyone will tell you that spinning rods are easier to fight fish with because they don’t try to twist or roll on you. The spiral wrapped casting rod gives you the best of both worlds---the stability of the spinning rod plus the strength of a casting reel.

Anybody who tries a spiral wrapped rod with an open mind is going to realize the many actual advantages they offer over a casting rod with guides on top. In fact, I often tell my customers now that casting rods with guides on top were a very poor design right from the start. They are defective in design right from the start. It is the conventional casting rod with guides on top that has the disadvantages. One of them is rod twist and that leads to extra effort being required by the angler. Not only that, but severe rod twist can lead to breakage.

Now about those so called disadvantages to spiral wrapped rods. What would they be? I've keep hearing about them but in all the years this board has been up and operating nobody has been able to list a single one other than that the rods look funny.

On a previous similar thread, I mentioned that I will convert my favorite conventional casting rod, a Gloomis IMX C721. It currently has 8 + 1 Fuji Titanium guides, TLNSG 12, 10, 8, TLSG 7 x 2, 6 x 3 and TFST 6 (2.0). I said also that I will probably hate to take a look at it after the conversion, I am willing to risk this and all the laughter I will get when I use it. I hope it will cast and perform much better, otherwise, I may have ti revert it back.

I will tell you guys 2 weeks from now the result. Pride of holding a good looking custom rod is paramount. At the end of the day, whatever sells better is the key.

Anthony Lee

Many of us already know what the result will be. It's going to cast just as well but will require less effort to fight a fish with due to the inherent stability it will have. How much less depends on the size quarry you're normally involved with.


.......

Tom, I an convinced that the spiral wrap will eventually be the norm. That's why I have to take the lead and change the community's misconception. The test will be whether my friends can be convinced. If they can accept the change, then I feel the market will.

Your explanation was simple and clear and that's how I need to do. But I still think it will be an uphill task. You cast 100 times and over here, we may not even land a single fish. What I am looking for is a better casting rod.

Anthony Lee

Tom,
The weight of most reels is going to be offset or off center? What is that going to amount to in terms of torque, an ounce, a couple of ounces??? That certainly is not enough to tire anyone. When the load, presumably a fish is off at an angle, not directly below the center line of the rod this will also result in torque but with a spiral wrap it will actually be LARGER than with a conventional wrap because the line will be at the bottom of the guides and farther away from the center line of the rod resulting in a longer moment arm at each guide. Spiral wraps have both advantages and disadvantages.

Mike,
I have thought about this a good deal and I think that I have a reasonably open mind and I am not stupid. I think that there are advantages and disadvantages to both spiral and conventionally wrapped rods. Nothing is for free. There is always a price to pay, there is always a trade off to be made.
There have been several long and heated threads about this in the past that I guess you have missed. I think that they have been heated because the advocates of spiral wrapping only look at the advantages and try to discount or minimize the disadvantages and are very defensive about anything that suggests that spiral wraps did not come down off a mountain on stone tablets. Trust me, that is not where spiral wraps came from.
I think that there are a number of situations or types of fishing where the spiral wraps make a great deal of sense, where the advantages far out weigh the disadvantages particularly where there are heavy loads on the rod as in off shore fishing. But I also think that there are other fishing situations where the advantages and the disadvantages of the spiral wrapped rods as compared to conventionally wrapped rods are about a wash. I also think that that there are some fishing situations where the spiral wrap does not make sense, where the disadvantages out weight the advantages. I also think that there are many situations where the advantages of spiral wrapped rods and the disadvantages of conventionally wrapped rods are very much exaggerated by the proponents of spiral wraps.
You said "please don't tell me that they don't cast as far and don't tell me that they twist" so I will not but IN FACT they will not cast as far, though the difference may be small, and under some circumstances they do twist.
In both cases and in several others I can explain what I think some of the disadvantages to you or at least what I believe are not opinions but fact. If YOU have an open mind and you really are interested then send me an e-mail or a post here and I will try to objectively outline what I think are some of the disadvantages.

One of these days I have to take a trip to the mainland and try one of those spiral rods, because until then, I think they just look funny!

;-)

Emory,

A bass reel won't put that much strain on anyone, but it will put some strain on them. If you're going to write off that small amount as being insignificant, then you can also write off the longer lever arm of the spiral wrapped rod guides when the fish is off to one side - that's also going to be insignificant, if not more so. Let's be consistent here - if you're going to downplay anything that you feel is only a small difference, then do it across the board. This includes casting distance. A good spiral wrapped rod will cast as far as a good conventionally wrapped rod for all practical purposes. In the worst case scenario, I have noted a difference of about 2 feet on a 100 feet cast. That's nothing, but technically yes, there is a difference. So too then, technically a bass reel wrapped in conventional style will require more effort on the part of the angler. Either discount all the minor things, or play them all up, but do the same to all of them.

The rod will always turn so that the guides face the direction of the load. Now with a spiral wrapped rod the worst case scenario is that the fish swims way off to one side of you and the rod will turn a few degrees, perhaps. But with a casting rod with conventional guides on top design, the best case scenario is that the fish will stay way off to the side and yet even then the rod will want to turn or twist a minimum of more than 90 degrees. To get a spiral wrapped rod to even approach wanting to turn or twist 90 degrees is going to require that you hook a flying fish or a seagull. A

A spiral wrapped rod will always want to turn or twist far less than any conventional wrapped rod in any real world fishing situation. It's never how much a rod wants to twist, it's how far it can and will twist. If you don't want to believe that spiral wrapped rods don't twist, then let's put it this way, spiral wrapped rods always twist LESS than conventionally wrapped rods in any practical fishing situation. And you would be hard pressed to ever twist or turn a spiral wrapped rod far enough that you would damage the rod - unless you get that flying fish on the line. On the other hand, rods can and do fail from twisting beyond 90 degrees, which is fairly common for conventionally wrapped rods, particularly those with light tips, such as bass rods and similar.

Anyone who has seen party boat anglers having to move down the rail while trying to maintain control over a fish will remember seeing the angler flip his rod upside down so the reel hangs below the rod. He can't fight the fish and hold the rod high and keep things upright with a conventionally wrapped rod. It requires too much effort. But the same angler with a spiral wrapped rod can just ease his grip and lift the rod up and over - the load from the fish keeps it upright and stable. And the harder the fish pulls the more stable the rod becomes. The effect is so strong, even with just a couple pounds of load on the line, that a heavy off-center reel will be righted by a spiral wrapped rod.

Many anglers do find that fighting fish is easier with spinning tackle. For the same reasons, fighting fish is easier with spiral wrapped casting rods.

I understand what Mike is saying, no one seems to be able to list any practical disadvantages to the spiral wrap. I think a better way to put it might be like this - what are the practical advantages to a conventionally wrapped rod over a spiral wrapped rod? Other than how you think it looks, of course.


.............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2006 08:55AM by Tom Kirkman.