Does anyone have any information or experience with the berkley type guides sold by Netcraft. I have use them for shooting eyes and on spinning rods and really like their weight and simplicity. Now I have a request to use them on a bass rod and I am getting some reservations on how they will hold up to braided lines. I don't know what their thin rings are coated with.

The rings are chromed SS 304 stainless steel the same material as the frame. The braided line will not harm the guide, the abrasive dirt, etc. that collects on/in the braid over time. Any of the ceramic guides are many times harder than the thin chrome finish which is many times harder than the stainless below. My opinion: We went to ceramics from wire guides many years ago for a reason, that reason hasn't changed.
If you look at the guide ring inside, it's a pretty flat surface. Look at the quality ceramics sold by our sponsors, it's a rounded surface, there's a reason they did that, reduced friction.
Take an 8 lb piece of leader and saw it fairly quickly through the berkeley guide with a little tension, 8 - 10 strokes you'll have a flat ribbon or it is melted through. Try that with an SiC guide, but bring a lunch and something to drink.
I originally rewrapped quite a few Berkeley Air IM7 salmon/steelhead rods with ceramics that came with the SS 304 guides, not so much anymore. All the rods that came before the change that had ceramics I see rarely for and ocassional individual guide repair. The Series One rods with the SiC guides on them I haven't seen in the shop, but there are still quite a few of them on the water.

Re: Alconite - Is it zirconium or premium aluminum oxide?
Posted by: Cliff Hall Date: March 9, 2006 10:25AM
[www.rodbuilding.org]

VICKER'S HARDNESS SCALE Values
for Line Guide Ring Materials 2005

Stainless Steel (SS): 400 [B.E.]
Chrome: 800-1000 [C.M.]
Carbaloy: 1000 [B.E.]
Aluminum Oxide: 1200-1400 [B.E., C.M.]
Alconite (Fuji): 1300-1500 [Fuji]
NanoLite (Titan): 1800 [J.M.]
Zirconia: 1000-1400 [M.G.]
Zirconia PVD: 1600 [B.E.]
SiC: 2200-2400 [B.E., C.M.]

For these References and further discusson, see [www.rodbuilding.org]

VICKER'S HARDNESS SCALE:
(courtesy of Bob Crook & Spencer Phipps)
[www.batsonenterprises.com]
BATSON ENTERPRISES (B.E.)
ForeCast Component Catalog 2005, page 2.

I have these guides on my Fenwick 6'6 ML spinning rod. They are nice and light. It has not seen much use so time will tell how they wear. I just checked Fenwick's site, and they are on every freshwater spinning or casting rod I checked. I suppose that on some rods, lightweight and inexpensive is a trade-off that might be acceptable? I may use some on ML panfish rods.

Fenwick's site: "Chromium SS304 Guide System is 20 times tougher, up to 55% lighter than conventional aluminum oxide guides."

Chuck

Fenwick's website says: "Chromium SS304 Guide System is 20 times tougher, up to 55% lighter than conventional aluminum oxide guides."

The operative word in Fenwick's comment is "TOUGHER", which has no standardized definition in rod-building.

These SS304 Guide Rings may be "tougher" in that MAYBE Fenwick means that maybe it takes 20 times more force to CRACK a Stainless Steel guide ring than to CRACK an Aluminum Oxide Guide Ring. That is possible, but only because metal is malleable and will severely deform before failure. Even a steel file, which can saw thru stainless steel fairly easily, will be quickly dulled if you try to groove even a cheap aluminum oxide guide ring with it.

By the VICKER'S HARDNESS SCALE, Aluminum Oxide (VH-(AlOx): 1200-1400) has a crystal structure that is over 3 times as resistant to scratching than any Stainless Steel (VH-(SS): 400) is. ... LOL, ... -Cliff Hall+++

If you cannot measure it, if you cannot express it in numbers,
your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind. -Lord Kelvin

Cliff, I agree with you. It's too bad that Fenwick has gone that route. Sam was asking about the Netcraft ss guides for use on a bass rod. I wouldn't recommend them for the reasons you and Spencer gave. I didn't mean to hijack the thread, but wanted to make the point that they are fairly light guides that would probably be better suited for lightweight use - if any on a custom rod. If the customer requested & received these guides, then spooled up with 50# Power Pro and tried horsing 4 or 5 pound largemouths out of the slop, the guides might not be the best choice. However, the way some people treat their rods, the guides might outlast the blank.

What would be a good alternative guide?


Chuck

Sam Fox said: "Now I have a request to use them on a bass rod and I have some reservations on how they will hold up to braided lines."

Chuck Mills asks: "What would be a good alternative guide?"

For a two-tone (silver & grey) color scheme, the Fuji Alconites remain a good choice. For a little choice in color and a fancier look, the Batson ForeCast VS3 Spinning Guides are very nice and only a little more money than the Alconites for some really beautiful colors. [www.fishsticks4u.com]

Like Spencer said, with a super-braid line, go with ceramic-ring guides. Unless you like replacing your guides every 2 years, ... LOL !

A lite-duty, lite-power spinning rod (for 4-8# line) that only sees 5-6 fishing trips per year could tolerate using wire-ring guides like the REC Recoils with monofilament nylon fishing line. But beyond those conservative limits, it's simply Caveat Emptor "Let the Buyer Beware."

Wire-ring guides will wear more rapidly than ceramic rings, in all circumstances. And super-braids will wear wire-ring guides more quickly than monofilament nylon will wear the wire-ring. After those guidelines, I'd say its a "Your Call" situation. Using a smaller style guide, like the ForeCast FL FLY Guides toward the tip section may be a better way to save some weight and preserve the rod's crispness than using a lite wire-ring guide. Plus I see more problems with wire rings in salt-water than ceramics, because most people in my area (North Central Florida) use the same medium bass tackle for lite inshore saltwater fishing (Gulf of Mexico or IntraCoastal Waterway). If they never see salt-water, wire-ring guides will not suffer the pre-mature aging that can soon cause problems in salty water.

I realize we were also considering the Berkley SS304-ring SS metal ring guides. Pretty much everything I said about the "wire-ring" guide is the same for the Berkley SS-ring. They are very sturdy and rugged against mechanical shock. But Stainless Steel is not as hard as a good chrome plating, or the sand trapped in a super-braid line. And SS is not as resistant to corrosion as ceramics are. (Ceramics are relatively inert and incorruptable compared to metals.)

'Hope that clarifies the rationale, rather than muddles it.
-Cliff Hall+++

Thank you all for your help. You have pretty well confirmed what I already suspected. I have used these for shooting eyes on fly rods and on UL spin rods but have shied away from them on bass rods for the reasons given. You all have pretty well summed it up. I was just wondering if anyone had found anything to the contrary.