I'm in the process of building some Seeker IGFA trolling rods, 6'9" with Aftco Unibutts., and silicone nitride guides for wireline. Can anyone can tell me the optimal guide spacing for this type of pole (5 guides is what I think it needs). Or even #s that are close. I have not built anything like this yet, thanks for the advice.

HI Jim,
I'm also in the process of building IGFA rods, a 30 lb. & a 50lb. The 30 has FUJI SiC guides bumper/ spiral wrap.
The 50 has all rollers. You just need to put some guides on with tape and the reel with a wieght on it , and see what the rod wants, just watch your thumb when the rod is fully flexed, move butt guide as needed.

Dave von Doehren
PRRODS......If man built it , man can fix it.and if man built it man can break it !

Exactly, I can tell you that I often went with 6 guides plus top on that blank and nearly always used Fuji LRSG guides on them. Rollers are fine, but possibly overkill for that lighter blank.

...........

Jim - When you say you'll be using "silicone nitride guides for wireline", what do you mean by "wire-line" - METAL MONEL WIRE or "Spider-Wire"-Braid? ...

If you are using a conventional revolving-spool reel (like a 4/0 Penn 113 or 113H), then I have a hard imagining that you can get anywhere near a remotely decent guide layout and load distribution with only 5 ring guides. (Sure, 5 ROLLER GUIDES could work, but not 5 ring guides.) That's just too few guides to keep the line above the rod blank under load. And not even a good Spiral Wrap like the Bumper System will allow that length rod to use so few guides, IMO.

If you have the latest copy of RodMaker Magazine, then may I suggest you look at the article by Tom Kirkman: "Building Live Bait Rods" [RMM-8(6), pages 10-13]. On page 13, he has a table of Guide Spacings for a 7-foot Spiral Wrap / Bumper System Rod. This 7' Live Bait rod blank is close enough to your rod's length, and a Live-Bait blank's power & taper-action are close enough to your IGFA-20# blank that you can get a ball-park feel for a layout that can be readily adapted to your IGFA-20#.

In TK's example of a middle of the road, typical line guide layout, he uses 10 (TEN) ring guides + tip-top, over ~ 52 inches from the rod-tip to the butt guide (stripper guide, or whatever you want to call the first guide in front of the reel.)

I can't imagine a 7' conventional or spiral wrapped rod with less than 8 ring guides on it. Unless maybe if you build it as a large-ring spinning rod using soft line (nylon or braid), or your customer simply prefers to have fewer larger-ring guides than more smaller-ring guides. A countless number of 7' SPINNING rods have been built using 5 ring-guides, ... but your project sounds like a revolving-spool reel, not a spinning rod. ... Unless I have really misunderstood your question.

IMO, Cliff Hall+++

These poles will be used to troll with 150 to 300 ft. monel 40 lb. wire for striped bass primarily, Penn GLS or equiv. reels. I looked at pics of Seekers "stock" IGFA 20s, and it appreared they used only 5 guides. Seemed too few to me as well. TK suggesting 6 sounds more reasonable. The blank is only 5'9", cut down a few inches, and total length with the Unibutt comes to 6'9". I think the blanks are plenty heavy to handle this application, without overpowering the fish, just want to get feedback from others that have built this type of rod. Fuji LRSG or Silicon Nitride II , which is preferable for monel?

RBO SEARCH = “WIRE TROLLING” {Message Body + Subject]
[Last 90 Days] SEARCH Returned: 6 RESULTS. Results 1-6 of 6

#6: Wireline Blank/Guide Advice Needed ... Jim Pizzale ... 12-04-05 17:34
[www.rodbuilding.org]
“I'm about to build a couple of wireline trolling poles. Use will be primarily umbrella rigs in 25-60 feet of water for striped bass (10-50 lb. fish), 40Lb. Monel. Someone suggested a Seeker IGFA 20. I plan on using an Aftco Unibutt, total length about 6' 8". Any other ideas for blanks? Guides possibly, Fuji Nitride II, Perfection Carbaloy? Any others that people like or suggestions? … Thanks for any advice......I've built quite a few poles, but nothing like these.” - Jim Pizzale.

1. Seeker IGFA 20 Guide Spacing Jim Pizzale 01/18/06 20:34
[www.rodbuilding.org]
“I'm in the process of building some Seeker IGFA trolling rods, 6'9" with Aftco Unibutts., and silicone nitride guides for wireline. Can anyone can tell me the optimal guide spacing for this type of pole (5 guides is what I think it needs). Or even #s that are close. I have not built anything like this yet, thanks for the advice.” –Jim Pizzale.

2. Re: Guides for wire line Bill Rice 01/14/06 09:14
[www.rodbuilding.org]
“Hi Jeff : I live in Florida and have 2 wire rigs my self . I use mine for high speed trolling. I first built a rod with the guides in the Roberts Revolver. … etc.” –Bill Rice. [I think he may mean Rich Forhan’s “Revolver” style for Spiral Wrapping.]

3. Guides for wire line jeff miller 01/13/06 19:29
[www.rodbuilding.org]
“Planning to build a couple of wire line rods. Will have 30lb stranded wire for trolling with dipsey divers. Plan to spiral wrap and would like to get away from roller guides if possible. … etc.” –Jeff Miller.

4. Re: Tuna Jigging Blank? Dave Fontaine 01/02/06 07:49
[www.rodbuilding.org]
“Billy, I agree w/ your explanation of why charter captains don’t use graphite rods on their boats. more reasons would simply be costs and abuse. Charters and their customers are usually hard on their equipment … etc” –Dave Fontaine.

5. Re: Wireline Blank/Guide Advice Needed Rich Kline 12/05/05 12:25PM
[www.rodbuilding.org]
“I also like the Lami BT857S, a bit light in the tip ( #14) , but this blank works great with Bunker Spoons. Any 7' Boat or Trolling Blank with a #14 or better tip will work for Rigs. … etc.” –Rich Kline.


Re: Seeker IGFA 20 Guide Spacing Cliff Hall 01/19/06 ~10:00AM
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Jim Pizzale – After this survey of the subject of what type of line guides would be preferred for trolling rods using Monel wire line for a ~20# trolling rod blank with ~40# Monel wire: I would say that the preference between roller guides or ring guides (SiC, SiN, Carboloy, Hardloy) seems to have more to do with considerations other than the guides ring material. All of these materials are harder than the Monel wire.

Attitude about the rod (classy v. work-horse); Price; guide frame Ruggedness; guide frame Flexibility; guide Weight; rod-tip flexing & blank Action-Taper-Power; rod-Tip Size and tip-section Diameter; expected length of Time of Trouble-Free service, ETC., seem to be the deciding factors.

It does seem that the choice of RING MATERIAL is almost equal among the ceramics Silicon Carbide (SiC) and the Silicon Nitride (SiN).

FUJI brand LRSG-(SIC) and BHNNG-(SIN) are obviously popular choices.

Another style of Fuji guide worth considering for this rod toward the tip section is:

*.JPG at the 2006 www.MUDHOLE.com website. Hard to find elsewhere. [shop.mudhole.com]

LBSG-(SIC): SiC-ring, Tri-Leg, Single-foot, HD-casting guide. This is definitely a STOUT, medium-height frame guide. Here is another builder-fisher’s comments:

Re: Determining single vs. double foot guides? Dave Barrett 12-21-05 09:17
[www.rodbuilding.org]
“… I build stand up tuna rods. So take that into consideration when I say that any rod to be fished with 80# line or less gets single foot guides. For me, that means LBSGs which are SIC heavy duty boat guides. I've fought many tuna using 35# of drag with these LBSG guides on a spiral wrap rod without a problem. Since a double-foot guide dampens the action of the blank more than a single-foot guide, why use the double when its just not needed? There. You have my take, I'm sure others will disagree. Merry Christmas!” –Dave Barrett (E-ddress: “Hidden”).

Re: Determining single vs. double foot guides? Dave Barrett 12-22-05 09:32
[www.rodbuilding.org]
“Well Tom Kelly beat me too it. Thanks, Tom. – Yes Cliff, those LBSG guides stand up to 35# of drag. In fact I'm building another rod with them that will be used with 100# test, 33# of drag at STRIKE and about 45# at FULL. It will be interesting to see what happens if I get lucky enough to hook into something that can still take drag when I'm at full!” –Dave Barrett.

Re: Determining single vs. double foot guides? Dave Barrett 12-22-05 09:32
[www.rodbuilding.org]
“Lu Gardner, – I wouldn't step up in thread size. Wraps done with A are far stronger than people think. A long time ago (2-3 years?) I posted the results of some testing I did. I wrapped a Aftco #31HD roller guide onto a scrap blank using only a 1/2" long wrap of A on each foot. I then took my drag scale and pulled until the guide broke free. On average it took 40-42# of pull to do it. Most importantly the reason the guide came free was not due to wrap failure, but because the guide frame buckled. I had planned on a whole series of test with different size thread and with/without epoxy as I want to be sure that my wraps were the strongest they could be. The results of that one test convinced me I needed worry about it. So now the only thread I use is A. My tuna rod guides are wrapped with an under wrap and 2 locking overwraps. Epoxy is applied with each over wrapping. Dave”

End of Tome. (Very interesting subject, ... Thanks, Jim Pizzale)
-Cliff Hall+++, Gainesville, FL-USA*****

Thanks guys for all the info.....this forum is invaluable for info and ideas....certainly helps clarify things in my mind prior to building. Cliff, these poles are going to be for my own personal use, so not so worried about "workhorse" style rod. I generally troll at 2 mph or less for striped bass, and have caught fish up to 40 lbs. I was really trying to make the "least overkill" rod for this type of fishing to make it a bit exciting (if you call wireline trolling exciting). For me its about trying to find where the fish are, depth, etc. And if I find them, usually switch over to live baiting and/or jigging. When I have guests out, and not much is going on, I can always count on getting a few fish in the boat with wire, improves morale immediately!

Jim - If these rods are for your personal use, and you want to build with the least overkill, then an interesting mix of guides could be:

** An LRSG-(SIC)-20mm Folded Frame for the Butt-Stripper guide, in the Backbone Section.
** Then several BHNNGs-(SIN) 16-12mm Double-Foot Tri-Legs, for the Middle-Section, where more of the hinging occurs.
** Then several of those lighter LBSG-(SIC) 12-8mm Single-Foot Tri-Legs, in the Tip-Section.
** If you Bumper Wrap, then a smaller Double-Foot guide, like a BHNNG-10mm, may work best there. [Bumper Wrap: RMM-8(2)]

You still probably want to use a nice UST-(SIC) or PST-(SIC) or BHNNT-(SIN) for your tip-top. The bigger the mushroom flange, the better, so you don't "kink" the Monel as it rolls out over the donut , or so the donut can lift the Monel high, so it doesn't rub the guide frame on a severely acute downward angle from the rod tip. ... Some may splurge for a real roller tip, but this blank will bend a lot before any serious pressure is applied.

Now THAT would make it an interesting trolling rod project, for sure. That's something I have had in mind since Tom Kelly & Dave Barrett's comments on the single-foot tri-leg LBSG-(SIC) entered my mind. From what Kirkman & Barrett, et al, have said, it sounds like such a guide layout could blend the best of all these choices into one very slick stick. ... With an Aftco Uni-Butt thrown in there, you will definitely generate some buzz at the dock, especially with big stripers to show for it. ... IMO, ... -Cliff Hall+++



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2006 11:51AM by Cliff Hall.

cliff-
Yes, sounds good. I'm planning on staying with larger guides in the top section (12s) so that I can feed and reel the small wind-on swivels so you can reel the wire and long leader onto the spool, so landing the fish is simplified (especially if alone). Will bind or catch too easily on 8 and 10s (from past experience). Thanks for the ideas......and certainly open to any more you may have.

Be carefull with those 'wind-on' swivels. I've seen SPROs crack rings, but it is a common practice even here along the NC coast.

When I build saltwater rods I really like to know what line size and, more importantly, how much drag pressure will be used. Many people use the 1/4-1/3 line break strength to set their strike drags. When setting up a rod I typically apply pressure for AT LEAST 1/2 the break strength of the intended line to be used. Rods meant for experienced fishermen and/or those that will see high drag settings this may even increase to 3/4 of the line break strength. I feel this fairly well covers the extremes the rod may encounter under real-world use.

As stated above, I also feel that 5 ring guides will not be enough for this particular rod. You won't need as many as on a live bait rod, but I forsee at least 6 (plus tip) of not 7 or even 8 depending on how much drag you intend to use. The SiN guides should do well with the wire, but so should the SiC guides. As Cliff stated a top guide with a large ring flange is better to keep the wire from kinking severely. For the spiral wrap you could also consider the All American @#$%& Roller top as an option.

Yep I see you being the talk of the dock with this setup...best of luck!

Jay

NO PROBLEM passing barrel swivels - Those rings were just my size recommendations, NOT that the AVAILABLE sizes. The AVAILABLE sizes are:

LBSG-(SiC): 16-12-10-8mm.
BHNNG-(SIN): 20-16-12-10-8mm.
LRSG-(SIC): 25-20-16-12-10-8mm.

[shop.mudhole.com] This M-H Link has a great *.JPG picture of this Fuji LBSG Single-Foot Tri-Leg SIC-ring medium-height guide. With its thick frame, squat profile, strong arch / curves and third leg, there is virtually no way this guide will twist or bend in any direction without the force being transmitted into deflecting the rod tip (where it belongs). This LBSG guide is not going to bend much at the heel, like a weeny fly guide or flatten like a Vee-guide that is top-mounted, or stick out like a sore thumb Y-frame (J-Concept). As an under-guide in a spiral wrap, like Dave Barrett said, up to ~35# of drag - "no problem". With the larger ring sizes of LBSG-16mm or LBSG-12mm, it should pass any wind-on (barrel) swivel that can make it thru the ring of your choice for a tip-top. IMO, -Cliff Hall+++



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2006 05:13PM by Cliff Hall.

Good advice on the SPROs....I'm always very careful when letting line out, and spooling that I do it "gingerly" so they clear and don't whack the ring. I'm thinking spiral wrap now , too....and Jay, those A.A. @#$%& look pretty nice!