In an earlier thread started by Jaime Choy there was a discussion about a ceramic guide insert installed directly onto the blank to serve as a bumper guide for a quick transition into a spiral wrap. It was soon concluded that it isnt feasable because of the brittle nature of the insert in conjuction with the dynamics of the blank, causing blank failure or the insert to break. My attempt at this a few weeks ago, and concurence from a few others contributing to the thread that have tried proved it true.
I made another attempt today that works GREAT! The more I messed with this, more benefits became appearent. This is what I ended up with:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

A polished hard chrome ring inset into a rubber grommet, essentially an inside-out guide, used only to deflect line away from the blank. The first two advantages to this( vs. an "outboard" framed bumper guide) to become obvious to me was:
1. Less extreme angles in the line as it transitions from guide to guide. The standoff of the ring bumper is only about 3/16" from the blank.
2. As the rod is flexed, the line is allowed to drift radially around the bumper ring to compensate for the changed dynamics, and seek the path of least restance to maintain minimal line angle. A framed bumper guide will sustain sideways force at some point through this cycle. Side force = line angle = increased friction. Its simply seems to be a more streamlined system.
Another benefit I noticed while the rod was bent over in the deflection jig was the fact that the line was settled very close to the bottom dead center of the stripper guide ring. That guide was set straight up at 0 deg. with all remaining guides inline at 180 deg. This is because the line deflection point at the bumper ring is closer to the centerline of the blank than it would typically be with a framed bumper guide. I suspect this may help with the line stacking up to one side of the reel spool, an issue associated many acid rods.
And yet, another observation is the appearance. With the guides in line, the rod is symetrical. This could be a big plus to those "members of the flat earth society" who just cant get over the the look of spiraled guides...and there are MANY!

Actually, a side mounted bumper guide, if it and the other guides are properly located, will hardly ever see any side force - you can't get that much flex in a blank in so short a distance as to load it that way. Naturally, if the first and second guides are located too far apart, as in a 90 degree transition type spiral wrap, then you will have side loading on that guide.

But, your idea is great. For many years I simply put a couple of Permagloss on the blank and allowed the line to rub that "hardened" area. But I always thought that some sort of ceramic plate or fitting would be better. I only cooked up the concept of the "bumper" guide as a means to keep the line from rubbing the blank for those who thought it looked bad to have the line rubbing there. And, the only thing handy for doing it was another guide.

Thanks for sharing your innovation. Should be interesting to see how others build on this idea. Your bumper ring or "anti-friction" ring is closer to the true idea of getting the line under the rod. All the spiral wrapping wrapping systems work well, but I never understood any transition guides were needed - the line will naturally go to the bottom of the rod if you'll only let it do so on its own. I look forward to the day when spiral wrapping systems totally do away with any transition guides - they're not necessary.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2005 09:03AM by Tom Kirkman.

Scott,
That looks like a good idea to me but it is not clear to me why you used two rings instead of one.

If the first two guides are located too far apart, the line will touch the blank at some point under heavy load with just one ring. The answer is two rings or to move those first two guides closer together.

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That is genius, truly. Why didn't I think of that???

It got me to thinking- along the lines of what Tom had posted- why not just mount a flat piece of polished ceramic material along the side of the rod? Just epoxy it in place. This would be even easier than making one of those rings, and it would work on blanks of any diameter. I will try this on some Bunker Spoon rods I'm making this winter...

At some point, there is going to be a definitive way to do this. I think Scott has taken it one step further and somebody else will go even further before much longer.

My only concern with a ring around the blank, even with the rubber insert, is that it still constricts the blank somewhat. Granted, the blank doesn't flex much in that area, on most heavier rods anyway, but if that constriction could be completely removed, well... so much the better.

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I would think that a small thread wrap on either side of the bumper ring would serve to keep it in place over the long haul. Just something that came to mind just now.

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Good idea on this. I knew someone would start something a bit different and lower yet than a guide on these bumpers sooner or later.

My only concern is weathering of the rubber. This stuff cracks and gets hard and busted up in just a short year or two normally.

Putter
Williston, ND

Hmmm ... a little thought..... How about using polyurethane as I used on my '57 chevy rebuild when I did the shocks; sway bars and bumpers. I replaced all the original (worn) rubber parts with the polyurethane inserts and it has been performing great for 4+ years with about 25,000 miles on it through mud, rain and snow heat and cold. UV might be a problem or maybe not. I know this stuff is impervious to oil and gasoline.... and inserts aren't that difficult to find either. It's still possbile to buy agatine inserts from a couple of suppliers - Goldenwitch (to the left) being one of them. Why does this sound like another couple of hours in the "lab" ? Putter you want to drop by and play? Or maybe something for Charlotte.

Oh, the polyurethane insert material comes in black, red, yellow (at least)

There was a fairly detailed discussion on this idea of using a cushioned bumper ring on this site back in April 05. Coin the term Simpler Spiral System. (SSS)

[www.rodbuilding.org]

After fishing variations on the design pictured for a season, I like it now as much as I did back then for all the same reasons that Scott mentioned and more. One of the biggest objections to traditional spiral wraps are the off axis guides that cause problems storing and tangling and the SSS eliminates that objection.

One other idea that was mentioned in the earlier post was to die cut or shape a ring cushion from high density foam...pick your color if you want to make it decorative. If the cushion mount gets weathered or torn, you can slide in a new cushion and remount the anti friction ring. You could even change colors it you'd like and it can also double as a hook keeper and rod marker. A pressure fit is usually enough to hold the ring in place, but you could tack the cushion mount with some adhesive if you want. The foam cushion and ring can be made quite a bit lower profile than the grommets. I also like Tom's idea of simply capturing the sides of the ring with some thread. What ever you do, don't underwrap the low friction ring with thread as a cushion. This was also discussed last spring. I tested it to confirm, and tightly wrapped thread can transfer quite a bit of stress through the ring to the blank.

There was some earlier discussion around using ceramic guide rings for bumpers and the concern that they're unfinished on the outside. You don't need to take them to a jeweler to polish the outer ring. I found that you can easily polish/buff the outer ring using a dremel and diamond lapping films or powers of the type found at lapidary supply stores. Sometimes you need to flame off any adhesive residue from the outer ring before polishing. If you are more patient, you can tumble the rings, which will also knock down any leading edges.

Good luck with it!

markG

Why don't you just use a piece of Stainless Steel Tape? It's has an adhesive on the back is thinner and won't effect the blank at all.

Jim,

That would work as long as it flexes and there's no edge for the line to rub or catch on. I've used a wrap of 3M 5490 PTFE (Teflon) adhesive backed tape as yet another option. If the tape scuffs or wears a little it's easy to replace. PTFE shrink tube also works well and once on seems to almost wet the surface and doesn't show up much at all on a glossy finish.


The cushioned or captured bumper ring does add little bit of a cool factor and it is quite functional with a smooth, hard surface with nothing to catch on. You can even leave the color on the vapor-coated rings if you just polish the outside edge.

mark

Jim
I have some titanium sheet .004 thick. I cut a piece 1" x 2" bonded it in place, tied off the ends as though it were a butt wrap. It worked like a charm, I think your steel tape will do just as good. The only problem I have with it, is it just doesn't seem to be good rod building practise. Somehow Tom's bumper guide seems to be more in line with what is 'fit n proper'. I look at the two rods side by side, and the bumper guide just seems to belong there, while that piece of titanium sticks out like a sore thumb, and more than one person asked what the devil is it there fore anyhow! I couldn't tell any difference in the performance of either system.
The old axiom that "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is readily apparent here, and maybe some of us older guys are to fixed in their ways to see an obvious advancement. I have been one of the most vehement defenders of the spiral wrap system, in fact there was an immediate surge of interest in the design after I wrote an article in rodmaker some 5 yrs ago or thereabouts, touting my system which now seems crude compared to the bumper design. Progress in design is inevitable, but sometimes there is a thin line between progress and wackyness.

Ralph

How about this recipe.

In the spot where your bumper should be, place an underwrapping of thread. Locate the ring material you choose to use be it stainless, chrome, titanium or whatever. Choose a ring close to the size needed and cut the ring in half forming two half-moons. If the half ring is too small you should be able to bend it slightly to fit over the underwrap. If the ring is too big, you may need to double your underwrap to snug it up. Prep the ring by grinding the hard edges, where you cut it in half, to a smooth ramp. Apply epoxy to your underwraps. When the epoxy gels simply slide your half-moon ring into place and snug it down into the finish.

Would the epoxy finish hold the half ring in place? You would not have a full ring around the blank which should help in the blank flexing. Prepping the ring where it was cut would help in case the line got pushed off the ring...no sharp edges to nick your line.

So how about it? A half-ring instead of a full ring. An underwrap to add a small amount of protection for the blank and also for properly sizing the ring to the blank.

Jay

I never felt that using a guide as the "bumper" item was ideal. I suggested it to Bill Colby when he was first trying the system as it was the easiest thing I could think of for most builders to use in keeping the line from rubbing the blank. And, it works.

But I've never doubted that there wasn't a better item or something that could be fashioned to perform the same task. When you come right down to it, the task that needs to be performed is not the same as line guides were designed to perform, or at least not exactly. What I would like to have, is a high build coating, football shaped, that would encircle the blank without constricting it nor coming loose.

Spiral wraps once looked odd (still do to may fishermen) and I have no doubt that anything put on there to use a bumper also looks odd, for the time being. But we have a way of getting used to things once they've been around for a few years.

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Jay,

Excerpt below taken from a the more detailed post last Spring that I gave in the link above:
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"I've tried a few different options, and one would be to cushion mount your rings. You can oversize the ring and mount them on a soft foam (decorative) ring or sleeve around the blank. You can die cut foam rings or a full sleeve and slide the guide rings over that. Get the fit right and you can either bond or just press them on and move them around to suit.

Another option is to slit your bumper guide rings. Cutting one side open allows for some flexibility or better yet splitting the rings in half allows you to mount with adhesive and be able to remove them if you want to change it later. I've got a power diamond saw with a very fine blade that'll cuts the rings like butter, so shoot me a note if you'd like a ring or two cut. "
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Splitting the ring will work. All you need is a good diamond saw with a fine blade. Personally, I like the full ring for the symmetry of it, plus your line can go to either side with the full ring if that matters to you. But the half shell is something you can add in or remove/modify more easily if you want to change it.

Another variation of Tom's idea of capturing the ring with thread would be to place a couple of rubber or foam o-rings on either side of the ring......weather resistant type of course. That way you could easily test and slide it around to position as needed.

mark

The reason I like the ring idea, is minimal surface area contact from the running line. It has the same contact erea as the rest of the guides. Because the line runs diagonally along the cylindrical shape of the blank, I think it may conform to the radius of the blank as it transitions from 0 to 180 degrees. Metalic tape or a build of finish would also conform to the shape. So the line in this case would make maximum surface area contact through the transition. Seems to me this would seriously hinder the casting performance of the rod.

Actually it won't hurt casting performance as much as you might think. That sort of friction doesn't really hinder your distance by very much.

Regardless, the less amount of contact area the better. The ring seems like a pretty good idea at the moment, as long as it doesn't constrict the blank. Even with the O-ring, a problem could arise. I guess it's one of those things that will just have to be tried and some hours put on it.

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What I would like to see is someting like a titanium or stainless steel peel-and-stick bumper.....a "Bumper Band-Aid" if you will. this would sovle my problems nicely. Could be produced in a vairety of colors and a few different lengths and widths to fit most rods, would be easy to produce, and could be easily removed and replaced if necessary with no real need for tools.

Or am I just plain nuts?

Derek
Rohnert Park, CA