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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Norman Miller (Moderator)
Date: March 13, 2023 08:58PM

Bob, I also made tree limb rods when I was a kid, and actually caught fish with them. I started building rods in 1969 when I was in the AirForce.
Norm

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: david taylor (---)
Date: March 13, 2023 09:13PM

As stated above, wraps should be snug but not so tight as to break thread, unless you have some bad thread. Instead of going to size D, try some size B, just a tad bigger. Pull the loop through smoothly, not too fast and hard and not too slow.

I pack my thread every 4 or five wraps, mostly with my fingernail. Burnishing tool is fine too.

Make sure to get your first six or seven wraps set up straight by adjusting with fingernail or tool. After that the other wraps when packed will be straight as well.

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: March 14, 2023 12:47AM

Rob,
If you are using thread to form a pull loop, stop using thread.

Rather use 10 lb braided fishing line. For myself in order to make it easier to see, I place a pink bead in all of my pull threads to ease of finding it again when it is put down or dropped.

As far as thread tension is concerned, I typically use size A thread and adjust the tension so that I can just barely rotate the guide foot using two thumbs to rotate the guide foot. The tension is too tight to be able to move it up or down the blank.

i.e. I check all of my guide spacing before I start to wrap so the guides are in the correct locations, before the wrap is started. Then, only a possible slight rotation of a guide may be necessary as a result of a change that happens during the wrapping process.

I use a power wrapper and generally have a 10 to 20 degree pressing angle of the incoming thread against the previous wraps. As a result, there is almost 0 packing required due to the tight pack that I get as the guide is wrapped.

Best wishes.

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Michael Danek (192.183.62.---)
Date: March 14, 2023 06:42AM

Regarding the comment on the ridges making it harder. Some builders agree with you and some don't seem to have trouble with them. I find them a complication that has no plus side, so I don't wrap blanks with ridges any more. I found I had to burnish and pack more with ridges, and sliding nail knots into position was more difficult than with smooth blanks.

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Daryl Ferguson (---.mycingular.net)
Date: March 14, 2023 10:41AM

I use fine dental floss for my pull loop.

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Michael Danek (192.183.62.---)
Date: March 14, 2023 10:49AM

But not waxed dental floss, right?

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: david taylor (---)
Date: March 14, 2023 11:52AM

I am building 3 rod blanks with ridges. Ridges make thread wrapping with size A or silk a bit more difficult.

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Daryl Ferguson (---)
Date: March 14, 2023 11:58AM

Michael Danek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But not waxed dental floss, right?


No, I thought about it, but opted against it because I worried how the wax would get along with finish epoxy.

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Bob Ginther (162.245.181.---)
Date: March 14, 2023 09:00PM

Rob, once you get comfortable with basic wrapping, then you will try your first attempt at some thread inlays. After immense frustration and tedious work and redoing them multiple times you will proudly finish your first blank and admire all of your hard work. Then you will apply the first coat of epoxy on the threads and watch all the threads instantly go dark and all your hard work inlays "disappear." Welcome to the hobby!

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: March 14, 2023 11:40PM

Rob,
I have followed your post and read all the replies; not a bad one in the bunch!!! = consider all of them. First and foremost, it appears that backing-off your thread tension will correct, if not solve, the majority of your issues (we don’t have problems, only issues). While I am quite certain that I wrap with more tension than most, I pack each rotation as the thread is fed onto the blank to basically eliminate burnishing the entire wrap later (= fuzzies), but never experience breaking threads while pulling through / tie-off. Norman’s method of early loop insertion to automatically bury the tag under the wrap is nothing new; I learned about it well before becoming a member here. But Norman’s comment “I’m sort of surprised that not everyone does it this way” is point-on; those who don’t simply refuse to try it!!! It really is a no-brainer as far as I’m concerned.
Too much thread tension will result in the thread “flattening” and making it more difficult to maneuver / pack tightly. Inversely, too little thread tension will not secure the underlying tags. It is a “feel” thing. Trust me, I have inquired here previously of a specific value, such as pounds or grams of tension, but to no avail. In the end, consciously observing the differences of thread tensions will serve you well.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Josh Bryan (---.tpgi.com.au)
Date: March 15, 2023 12:33AM

I had issues with my home made thread tension device, where the tension is on the spool not the actual thread, the wing nut kept moving to tighten or loosen depending which way I placed the spool.

Tried everything to solve it, it has the right amount of washes too to start with, I ended up screwing in another nut... tension the thread/spool just a bit to how I like it, and then used the wing nut to lock it in.

Bit more fiddly but well worth it

Unless others have a better solution for this type of tensioner?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2023 12:36AM by Josh Bryan.

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: March 15, 2023 01:22AM

Josh,
The only thread tensioner that I have ever used is the simple one where the thread runs through a pair of tension disks, the tension is set by a spring and an adjusting nut.

I never cared for putting tension on the spool, because there are too many things that can go wrong with this method and is subject to change as the diameter of the spool changed.

Essentially billions of articles of clothing are made every day on sewing machines that use the identical method to control the tension on their sewing thread with nary a miss.

I never run metallic thread through the tension disks though. The disks will tend to strip the metallic thread of their metallic wrap. So, I just use my hands to do the short trim wraps that I make with metallic thread and it works very well indeed.

Picture of the thread holder and tensioner:
[www.rodbuilding.org]

I have built hundreds of rods over the years and this is the only thread holder and tensioner that I have ever used and it has never failed me. My rod bench is a 10 foot long piece of slick formica topped kitchen counter top. My power wrapper bed is a 2x4x 10 feet long aluminum channel. The thread holder which has a base of 1 inch thick nylon simply slides very smoothly along the bench top with the front of the thread holder resting against the back edge of the power wrapper bed. There is never interference in the smooth movement of the thread holder by a rod rest or anything else, because the back side of the wrapper bed is smooth and provides a smooth surface for the thread holder.

Best wishes.

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Josh Bryan (---.tpgi.com.au)
Date: March 15, 2023 02:15AM

Thanks, Rodger

I have used a sewing machine thread tensioner for about 30yrs without any issues, set up so i can spin 100yd, 1oz or 4 oz spools.

It's just that I do centre wraps or full underwraps in metallics sometimes
Hence wanting those spools supported rather than using your hands.

I've had issues with the foil scuffing, not a good look.

Cheers.

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Rob Carey (---)
Date: March 18, 2023 02:29PM

Thank you all!

Setting up the table now. Trying my first spiral wrap today as well.

Rob

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: March 18, 2023 04:39PM

I'm like Roger, same experience with that type tensioner. A problem with the tensioners that load the ends of the spools is that labels which are not really smooth can affect the tension, giving uneven tension. I submit if the thread (not talking metallic which I like Roger just use for inlays/trim) cannot accept the disc tensioner, try some different thread, like Gudebrod, Fuji, Pro Wrap, and probably most others. Yes, I know Gudebrod is no longer made, but there is a lot of it still out there and available for purchase.

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: March 18, 2023 11:29PM

Michael,
Your comment is exactly the reason that I preferred not to use a tensioner on the thread spool.

Roger

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: David Baylor (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: March 18, 2023 11:36PM

Josh, I have a Pac Bay power wrapper that uses the same type of tension system. Nylon washers, a spring, and a wing nut. I'm not sure I had problems with the wing nut tightening, but I did have problems with inconsistent thread tension. I ended up getting a pair or rare earth magnets from a former board sponsor. Alas that sponsor is gone. but if you enter the words "round magnetic washer with hole" into the search bar of that place named after the longest river in South America, you will most likely be able to find some that will work for you.

They work really really well. Thread tensions is consistent and they are responsive to even small changes of the wing nut. And since the magnets don't touch, there's no way the wing nut can tighten.

Of course you have to loosen the wing nut a bit as the diameter of your thread spool decreases, but that's a given when thread tension is controlled at the spool.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2023 11:37PM by David Baylor.

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Josh Bryan (103.77.235.---)
Date: March 18, 2023 11:46PM

Michael Danek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm like Roger, same experience with that type
> tensioner. A problem with the tensioners that
> load the ends of the spools is that labels which
> are not really smooth can affect the tension,
> giving uneven tension. I submit if the thread
> (not talking metallic which I like Roger just use
> for inlays/trim) cannot accept the disc tensioner,
> try some different thread, like Gudebrod, Fuji,
> Pro Wrap, and probably most others. Yes, I know
> Gudebrod is no longer made, but there is a lot of
> it still out there and available for purchase.

I only use Gudebrod (probably got a supply to last 2 life times)

Tensioning the mettalic threads itself (issues with the foil scuffing) even when gudebrod is nice and smooth.
Other mettalics that I've got are even worse, freeway and whatnot.

I did have problems getting even tension on my other tension device that i incorporated, so to get even tension (even with the stickers on the end of the spools) I use a nut to tension how much I want it then lock in in with a wing nut,

Works sweet

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Josh Bryan (103.77.235.---)
Date: March 18, 2023 11:51PM

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Josh, I have a Pac Bay power wrapper that uses the
> same type of tension system. Nylon washers, a
> spring, and a wing nut. I'm not sure I had
> problems with the wing nut tightening, but I did
> have problems with inconsistent thread tension. I
> ended up getting a pair or rare earth magnets from
> a former board sponsor. Alas that sponsor is gone.
> but if you enter the words "round magnetic washer
> with hole" into the search bar of that place named
> after the longest river in South America, you will
> most likely be able to find some that will work
> for you.
>
> They work really really well. Thread tensions is
> consistent and they are responsive to even small
> changes of the wing nut. And since the magnets
> don't touch, there's no way the wing nut can
> tighten.
>
> Of course you have to loosen the wing nut a bit as
> the diameter of your thread spool decreases, but
> that's a given when thread tension is controlled
> at the spool.


Interesting, thank you very much

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Re: Wrapping Is Hard
Posted by: Mark Mulanax (---)
Date: March 19, 2023 04:08PM

Wrapping guides has taught me one thing for certain. PATIENCE! =X 6

Which I need at this time and point in my life- Recovering from an unplanned surgery plus another thing I had and could have killed me I understand- I am impatient like you would not believe. I don't have enough energy to wrap a single guide right now- Tried to wrap single foot spinning guide and -lets just say it wasn't what I wanted.

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