Never purposely put on too much epoxy and attempt to "wick it off." That procedure is only for accidents when you put on more than you needed. It's a remedy for a situation you should try to avoid from the outset.

.........

Bob,

I tried heating the epoxy components (primarily the resin) a few times and it shortened the pot life considerably. That's when I went back to room temperature epoxy at ~70 degrees. I've put it on as low as 66 degrees too. It's going to generate it's own heat by chemical reaction to cure anyway, so I'm just allowing it to remain in a liquid state longer to give it more time to level.

Dave

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Never purposely put on too much epoxy and attempt
> to "wick it off." That procedure is only for
> accidents when you put on more than you needed.
> It's a remedy for a situation you should try to
> avoid from the outset.
>
> .........

???????This is literally my method. I flood the wrap every time virtually. Huh...well that might explain a few things. No more drip & flip then...check



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2023 09:27PM by Bob Foster.

David Sytsma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bob,
>
> I tried heating the epoxy components (primarily
> the resin) a few times and it shortened the pot
> life considerably. That's when I went back to room
> temperature epoxy at ~70 degrees. I've put it on
> as low as 66 degrees too. It's going to generate
> it's own heat by chemical reaction to cure anyway,
> so I'm just allowing it to remain in a liquid
> state longer to give it more time to level.
>
> Dave

I believe I will try this also. Each step that can be eliminated seems like a good thing, especially ones that are perhaps contributing to hurdles.

Thanks again

Hey Bob!

I have fished Northern Manitoba lakes for about 3.5 decades around the Town of Lynn Lake, near Reindeer Lake, and my wistful mind always dreamed of the Yukon....and that pic of that gorgeous river you were fishing didn't help me at all! Ha! Is that a Yukon river? It is so clear it reminded me of all those glacier-rounded rock bottoms in lakes, streams, and rivers in Manitoba. (I live in the Kansas City area, not Lynn Lake, btw.)

Yes, Terry Henson is a real master and uber perfectionist (as you can tell from looking at his work). Mind you, he had no problem fussing over a single feather for hours before he moved on to the next detail. Very generous person with sharing his knowledge, too. Oh, and Terry didn't have a beard to mess up his work! Hehe!

Oh yeah, I use a spatula and brushes both in epoxy application. The longer the wrap, the more challenging it is for me, too. A wider brush seems to work better than a narrow brush on long wraps. The finish goes on a bit faster and more evenly. As you stated, the guide wraps are hardly ever hard to get the look I want. They are shorter, too.

That is a Yukon river but not "the" Yukon river. It is the Kathleen River which is quite short (worth a google) from lake to headwaters but it is quite unique in that you stand a chance of catching rainbows, grayling, lake trout and kokanee all in the same water. Catching all four in one outing gives you bragging rights to a Kathleen Grand Slam. I myself have not achieved this local status. The lake is also quite beautiful.

On the beard front thank goodness for the flex coat slip clutch!! It was a real mess haha

I'm going to try the brushes again. It's starting to look like I've managed to build some bad habits into my epoxy process and looks like a re-evaluation is in order. I have good patience and have spent most of my life on the steep face of one learning curve or another so I'm optimistic in that way. I feel I'm close to what I would like to see. Epoxy is such a weird critter.

The high RPM rotation motor helps. I only have a rod dryer motor set up and it is much slower, and I think a bit more challenging to get long sections of epoxy smooth.

I have been setting the rpm to a little slower than when the epoxy starts to threaten to sling off the rod when first applied. I normally use a spatula and have found that if I have the spatula too perpendicular to the rotation of the rod it will froth up the epoxy....it's almost like a cavitation effect kinda sorta. You can watch it happen. Nice clean epoxy until the angle reaches a point where suddenly I can see all kinds of bubbles getting pulled into the mix. I'm going to experiment more with brushes but so far as soon as I experience any self doubt with the brushes I panic grab for the spatula haha.

Practice makes perfect

Bob - I am at the Expo and sat in on a session done by the "Munich Rod Man", Mark Krouse I believe is his name. It was basically a Q/A session and we got into the topic of finish epoxy. One thing mentioned by Mr Krouse was that Epoxy will generally be dry to the touch on the outside within +/- 8-12 hours but it takes much longer to fully cure all the way thru. So, he said when he intends to sand an epoxy layer he waits a minimum of 4-5 days (preferred a full week or more) before even touching it with the sandpaper. He indicated if you hit it with sandpaper ahead of that time when not fully cured it will look a milky white.

Also another interesting little epoxy tidbit in same session is that you should never go and fish with your new rod until that epoxy has cured entirely (again around a week+). He indicated that if you hook up with a fish and flex the rod the uncured interior epoxy will cloud up and not look good. Don't fully understand the why's to that but this fellow has been doing it a long time.

Anyhow, I had never heard or read either of those things in my ongoing research into rodbuilding. I certainly am still so green to not actually have experienced or seen any of that first hand as of yet. Just thought I'd share since somewhat tied into the topic of this thread.

Also, he indicated that cure time is impacted by temperature but also impacted by your elevation. Evidentially his shop is 3000 ft above sea level and his cure times are much much longer because of that.

Bob, I think the finish in the last two photos, looks beautiful. Like you, I'm not a good enough kind of guy. I am real picky when it comes to most things, so I can understand your consternation when things aren't exactly as we hoped. As you said in an earlier post, we do the best we can, and we can take pride in knowing that we did our best, even if the results aren't what we'd envisioned.

One of my jobs earlier in my life was running a furniture delivery warehouse for a local business. Part of my duties was to prepare product for delivery which included repairing damaged pieces of furniture. I got pretty good at repairing finishes on them but it was a process of making myself not play with the repair too much. I'd get it to where I thought it looked great, but that it could look better, and I would invariably mess up what I had already done.

Shift to rod building, and I found myself doing the exact same thing with my guide wraps and finish. I tried to be too perfect in application, instead of letting the product do what it's going to do. Once I took that pressure off of myself, my wrap finishes improved dramatically. Basically I got out of my own way.

You do beautiful work, I have a feeling you just need to get out of your own way from time to time. lol

First things first. Your thread work is second to none! The other thing is that when I apply my epoxy, after I stop rotation and wick away the drips, I do the 180 degree flip process - every minute - for 1 full hour before I employ the dryer motor. If I don't do this flip technique for at least an hour, I get waves and "football" shaped finish. I also steer clear of "light" formulas.

Kevin Fiant Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bob - I am at the Expo and sat in on a session
> done by the "Munich Rod Man", Mark Krouse I
> believe is his name. It was basically a Q/A
> session and we got into the topic of finish epoxy.
> One thing mentioned by Mr Krouse was that Epoxy
> will generally be dry to the touch on the outside
> within +/- 8-12 hours but it takes much longer to
> fully cure all the way thru. So, he said when he
> intends to sand an epoxy layer he waits a minimum
> of 4-5 days (preferred a full week or more) before
> even touching it with the sandpaper. He indicated
> if you hit it with sandpaper ahead of that time
> when not fully cured it will look a milky white.
>
> Also another interesting little epoxy tidbit in
> same session is that you should never go and fish
> with your new rod until that epoxy has cured
> entirely (again around a week+). He indicated
> that if you hook up with a fish and flex the rod
> the uncured interior epoxy will cloud up and not
> look good. Don't fully understand the why's to
> that but this fellow has been doing it a long
> time.
>
> Anyhow, I had never heard or read either of those
> things in my ongoing research into rodbuilding. I
> certainly am still so green to not actually have
> experienced or seen any of that first hand as of
> yet. Just thought I'd share since somewhat tied
> into the topic of this thread.
>
> Also, he indicated that cure time is impacted by
> temperature but also impacted by your elevation.
> Evidentially his shop is 3000 ft above sea level
> and his cure times are much much longer because of
> that.


That is interesting and I am envious of you getting to attend the expo haha. I have been waiting about three days minimum but perhaps should be waiting longer. I do know that the first few days really see the epoxy go from "I'm afraid to touch it..." to "damn this stuff sets up hard". I had read somewhere that you can avoid the epoxy cracking at the ends on the guide feet by applying the first coat of epoxy then putting a full flex on the rod before adding the final layer(?) but I don't know if that's true and haven't been brave enough to try it. So many fine points in this craft that a person doesn't see when he first gets into all this but I suppose if all the info just smashed us in the face at once we'd all just run away.

In my battles with the permagloss over the last couple of days I have been pushing the envelope in sanding and buffing and reapplying and repeating and have been mostly getting away with it but also it feels like I'm only a hair away from getting bit in the butt. Permagloss is interesting. If I had to fuss with the epoxy and wait days before fussing with it again in the same sort of context as I have been fighting in, the grips on Aurora would take weeks haha

Thanks for sharing this

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bob, I think the finish in the last two photos,
> looks beautiful. Like you, I'm not a good enough
> kind of guy. I am real picky when it comes to most
> things, so I can understand your consternation
> when things aren't exactly as we hoped. As you
> said in an earlier post, we do the best we can,
> and we can take pride in knowing that we did our
> best, even if the results aren't what we'd
> envisioned.
>
> One of my jobs earlier in my life was running a
> furniture delivery warehouse for a local business.
> Part of my duties was to prepare product for
> delivery which included repairing damaged pieces
> of furniture. I got pretty good at repairing
> finishes on them but it was a process of making
> myself not play with the repair too much. I'd get
> it to where I thought it looked great, but that it
> could look better, and I would invariably mess up
> what I had already done.
>
> Shift to rod building, and I found myself doing
> the exact same thing with my guide wraps and
> finish. I tried to be too perfect in application,
> instead of letting the product do what it's going
> to do. Once I took that pressure off of myself, my
> wrap finishes improved dramatically. Basically I
> got out of my own way.
>
> You do beautiful work, I have a feeling you just
> need to get out of your own way from time to time.
> lol

Thanks for the kind words and advice David.

Getting out of your own way.....I like that. It resonates. For a long time I was a fan of Alan Watts, still am in truth. One of my take aways from his outlook was that the more we actively pursue and push towards a thing or take action in the desire of a thing the more we will push that thing away. I found that confusing at the time and still do but also weirdly get it. I have in my life decided to get into a one thing or other, motorcycle and leather work are good examples, and would really get into it and at some point I would hang a label on it and it would strangely fall apart and my interests would move on to something else. That probably makes no sense but I'm hesitant to label or define a thing or relationship for fear the bubble will burst. In truth I have hung a label on this rod building thing in that I have a social media presence and a small website that I look at as groundwork for one day turning the rod building into a retirement gig, but I am wary and watch for signs that the fire is dying down....so far so good.

I have a friend that is a carpenter. I spent some time working for him and building skills in that neck of the woods and he used to say that being a good carpenter is one piece of the puzzle but another piece of the puzzle is hiding what a crappy carpenter you are. As long as the final product fits the bill there is no need to beat oneself up over hiccups along the way...

Thanks again,

Torin Koski Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First things first. Your thread work is second
> to none! The other thing is that when I apply my
> epoxy, after I stop rotation and wick away the
> drips, I do the 180 degree flip process - every
> minute - for 1 full hour before I employ the dryer
> motor. If I don't do this flip technique for at
> least an hour, I get waves and "football" shaped
> finish. I also steer clear of "light" formulas.

You're very kind and thanks for that. I strive in every build to get away from football shaped wraps with varying degrees of success / failure. When I see pictures of wraps that are nice and straight and flat I am for sure envious of the skill or technique that such results require. I am a proponent of the 180 flip technique as well but need to and will modify my current bad habit of slathering the epoxy on on purpose and then wicking it off again. Funny how often less can be more. I can't say I do the flip for an hour and perhaps I will explore that during my current build. I have though been doing the flip and then gotten distracted only to find the the epoxy has drooped onto the low side and then set to the point the droops didn't go away. This is where I have found I have seen the most improvement in my sanding skills...

I have been steering towards the light formulas thinking a few lighter coats will help me get away from the football effect. I have quite a stash of it so will burn through it but perhaps I should explore the high build stuff a little more. The first couple of rods i built turned out better than I thought and they were a high build formula and were part of the mudhole kit I had bought. The results gave me a bit of a false sense of my skills and did not prepare me for some of the battles that would follow haha

Thanks again,

David,
If you only have a slow rotation motor, then, get a faster variable speed setup.

This setup, just makes finish application so much easier and much quicker.

Best wishes.

Note:
If you need help with the motor or motor choices, just drop me an e-mail and I can help.