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Fuji Concept Reduction Guide Spacing
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: January 18, 2021 08:02AM

Is the spacing of the reduction guide train a factor as long as the reducing train is concentric?

I used the calculator for guide spacing but it did not have a calculation option for a 250 size reel. I rounded up and placed as calculated and then finessed them into place by concentric alignment. However once I did that the spacing deviated by -1.75" throughout the reducing train with the biggest change being -0.8" between the first and second reducing guide.

Is this an indicator that I chose the wrong height of guides? Should I have rounded down to the 200 size bale?

Thank you,
Aaron Petersen



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2021 08:14AM by Aaron Petersen.

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Re: Fuji Concept Reduction Guide Spacing
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: January 18, 2021 09:47AM

Tape the guides on the blank and go cast it.

..........

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Re: Fuji Concept Reduction Guide Spacing
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: January 18, 2021 10:13AM

Tom,

Excellent point. I am over thinking as I often tend to do. I will cast it this afternoon and report back.

Thank you,
Aaron Petersen

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Re: Fuji Concept Reduction Guide Spacing
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: January 18, 2021 11:00AM

Are you using the NGC or the KR concept, and how long is your rod? In my opinion, when using a short blank neither GPS does a good job. I get much better results stretching out the reduction train making it a longer.
Norm

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Re: Fuji Concept Reduction Guide Spacing
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: January 18, 2021 11:12AM

I think you're going to find it works just fine. What is the spacing from the reel axle tip to the first guide? I presume you'r using a three guide reduction train. When you have achieved the "bullseye," which I think you are calling concentricity, then moving the whole reduction train in and out an inch or so from about 19.5 might show something.

My experience with the Fuji KW software and KLH guides (20-10-5.5M) is that it always works well without tweaking. The difference between reel sizes, unless extreme, is, in my opinion, insignificant.

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Re: Fuji Concept Reduction Guide Spacing
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: January 18, 2021 11:31AM

Norm- I am using KR and it is a 7' rod.

Michael- My first guide is 20" from spool axle tip. from there the GPS had spacing after as 7.84" behind stripper, 5.8" second to third, 6.94" third to choke. What I have taped on is 7" behind stripper, 5.25" second to third and 6.5" third to choke.

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Re: Fuji Concept Reduction Guide Spacing
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: January 18, 2021 11:34AM

Forgot to mention the rod is the NFC SJ 703.

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Re: Fuji Concept Reduction Guide Spacing
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: January 18, 2021 12:05PM

Aaron,
I simply use the simple concept of taking the first three guides in front of the reel to get the line to the blank and then use small "runners" to carry the line to the tip top.

I typically start with the stripper or first guide in front of the reel seat at 19 - 20 inches from the face of the reel as it is mounted on the rod.

I have never found a need to use software or anything similar.

In a nut shell - I load the blank from the tip, and put guides anywhere on the rod blank so that the line running through guides is following the contour of the loaded blank.

If the line is too close to the blank I will change the guide size or decrease the guide spacing. Conversely, if the line is too far from the blank, I will; either decrease the size of the guide or reduce the distance between the guides.

But, I always make a point to have JUST ENOUGH guides and no more than is necessary to control the line and cause the line to follow the contour of the loaded blank.

As it was said in the story of Goldilocks and the three bears. "Not too short, not too tall, but just right"

In the parlance of building rods, not too few or too short guides, nor not too many or too tall guides, but just the right number of the right height for building a great fishing rod.
.

If it looks good - it is good and I move on.

Take care

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Re: Fuji Concept Reduction Guide Spacing
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: January 18, 2021 12:30PM

Seven feet is right in the wheel house for the KR GPS, and should give you a good starting point. Personally, I really don’t like the non progressive spacing between the reduction guides that the KR GPS sometimes gives, especially when using a KL16H based reduction train. In my option, I get a better guide train if I progressively space the guides between the stripper and choke, and find it easier to get a bullseye. Also remember that when using KR GPS the choke point will change depending on the distance from the stripper to the tip top. So the choke point is a movable point that is not locked in stone, and thus can be moved in or out a little to tweak performance and get a nice progressive guide layout. I always use at least one more runner than recommended by the GPS. If you ever want to use a larger reel or heavier line, I have found, like Micheal, that moving to a KL20H based reduction train gives a little more versatility, I have done several X-ray SJ703 spinning rods, so if you need more specific info feel free to contact me.
Norm

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Re: Fuji Concept Reduction Guide Spacing
Posted by: chris c nash (---.atmc.net)
Date: January 18, 2021 04:59PM

If you're using braid under a listed 15 pound stated rating it's extremely difficult to determine the best guide train layout for optimal performance .

Light braid is so limp and forgiving that it will seem to cast extremely well even on bad guide layouts and that fact alone is the reason I always test layout's that I plan to use light braid on with heavier line which will reveal less than optimal guide placement . If I'm laying out a build to be used with 10 pound braid I'll test it with 20 pound braid . If the layout works great with heavier line then it will be a world beater with lighter braid. The key is to go with the lightest and smallest ring sizes that will still perform optimally with a line that is a litter heavier than the line you plan on using.

If using ultra light braid you also don't want to go with guide choices that are large enough to work great with 50 pound braid because that will mean you went a little too large on the guides which mean unnecessary weight . You want guide choices/layout to work great with a line a little heavier than you plan on using not a lot heaver than you plan on using.

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Re: Fuji Concept Reduction Guide Spacing
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: January 19, 2021 08:41AM

My plan is to use straight fluorocarbon in the 8lb range. I rechecked "bullseye" with table edge and laser then test cast with 12lb fluoro. After review of a few casts I moved the last reducing guide out 0.5" to help turn the corner. Tested again and it looked great on the slomo videos. Though I did learn that I need to get some really visible line because watching pure fluoro at 60 frames per second is still hard to see. I plan on making a test board with a black background and get different sizes of hi-vis line.


Thank you everyone for the assistance.

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Re: Fuji Concept Reduction Guide Spacing
Posted by: Ernie Blum (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: February 02, 2021 10:01PM

Hello everyone, my name is Ernie and I am posting for the first time. I am not necessarily new to rod building, but after spending a little time reading some of these posts, I might as well be. I built most of my rods over the years according to the principles laid out in Dale Clemens' "Fiberglass Rod Making" that I likely purchased some forty years ago. I guess some things have changed!

I purchased an NFC SJ 703 7' blank a while back, and when I went into a catalog to search for guides, I began seeing all the info on NGC and KR Concept. Intrigued, I read as much as I could. Usually a good idea....usually. Now I've got formulas related to spool diameter in mm X 27 for the choker, then 19 to 20" in front of the spool face for the stripper...and another suggests that the choker guide placement is not carved in stone. Guide numbers are blank length plus 1 not including the tip top...unless that doesn't work out. There are some rules to guide sizes and spacing referenced, but someone says that the use of braided line trashes the old rules. Another states that the use of light mono or light braid changes the rules a lot, and the best way to assess is to tape and cast. Yet another suggests making your own rules. Someone says that one use a heavy braid to cast for performance assessment instead of light braid. Light braid likely will cast well regardless of how well guides are placed and spaced. I think I'm getting light headed.

So, I like the "concept" idea, and it seems to make sense. I'm just looking for a logical means to an end here. And lastly, it seems that everyone is in agreement here that test casting is always a good idea. My problem is that I don't know what to look out for. What are the evils of a less than ideal setup that manifest themselves while test casting. Then, assuming I can diagnose those ills, I still then would have to treat them for a resolution. At this point, I would have no idea how to do so. Are there any good videos or explanations out there with this topic in mind that someone could lead me to?

It used to be so simple. Find a blank, use a guide per foot of rod not including the tip top, place the stripper about 34 to 36 inches or so from the butt, size the stripper about half the diameter of the reel face, and taper the remaining guides to the end. Now.....

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Fuji Concept Reduction Guide Spacing
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: February 09, 2021 08:29AM

Ernie,

I, much like you, had to learn a few new tricks during my SJ703 build. My struggle was that I was overthinking everything. I am pretty sure my post history on this forum summarizes my overthinking abilities. That said there was two major takeaways that will forever impact my rod building.

1. Like all manufacturer supplied guide spacing the NGC and KR calculators are just good starting points. The name of the game is static guide spacing. Search it in the forum. This changed a lot for my running guides.

2. The cone of flight builds won't be on my work table anymore. The casting feels and appears smoother.

3. There are some really great people on this forum with lots of experience.

In the end rod building is what you make it. There will always be innovations and new concepts to try. It is up to you to decide what works best for you. Don't be afraid to try new things. If it isn't for you then you can always mend it back.

When test casting just look for the line impacting the blank as it swirls off the reel through the guides.

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