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Gluing guides
Posted by: Danny Smith (---)
Date: November 21, 2020 04:31PM

I have been watching videos on wrapping and have a question. I sometime hear negative comments about pre-gluing guides to the blank prior to wrapping; however, I have sen it done in several instructional videos. I am having problems keeping the guides on while wrapping small double footed casting guides. They are so small that if I do tape it well I am unable to leave any room to start the wrap on the feet. Is gluing on the guides prior to wrapping and appropriate option? Does it do something to compromise the blank? If appropriate, what adhesive would you use? I tried taping one side and wrap the other first, but I have trouble with it coming out and ruining my wrap while wrapping the other side. I have tried to research this, but I am getting some conflicting information. Your opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Fishing is not a sport, it is an art.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Peter Genna (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: November 21, 2020 04:38PM

I`ve secured micro guides to the blank with very thin strips of masking tape.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: November 21, 2020 05:03PM

If taping one leg isn't working because the guide comes loose after the first leg is wrapped I think you can solve it by increasing your thread tension. I use that method successfully. Also make sure your guide sets well on the blank; bend it to make it set well if necessary.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 21, 2020 05:22PM

Could also use flex coat guide foot adhesive, which is a low temperature melt adhesive. The guide can still be aligned after wrapping. It is different from tip top adhesive, which is a high melt adhesive.
[flexcoat.com]
Norm

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Donald La Mar (---)
Date: November 21, 2020 05:36PM

You've got options, and in no special order:

There is a guide foot adhesive (it's a white stick) made just temporarily affix a guide;

There is guide tubing of various IDs (this is what I use for small snake guides and single foot micro guides);

There is 1/8" masking tape that can be cut to a narrower width, and;

There is a wrap starting technique where the thread is taped to the blank opposite the foot to be wrapped, the thread is then spiraled over the opposite foot, then the foot to be wrapped, and finally wrapped back over itself to start the wrap. This technique is used in conjunction with one of the options above.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2020 05:40PM by Donald La Mar.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Kent Griffith (---)
Date: November 21, 2020 05:48PM

Peter Genna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I`ve secured micro guides to the blank with very
> thin strips of masking tape.

I cut up thin strips of that blue painter's tape. Works great.

Not a fan of pre-gluing guides in place because after wrapping the thread on them, sometimes they need adjusting for better alignment.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Danny Smith (---)
Date: November 21, 2020 05:57PM

I will probably try all of these methods to see what works best for me. Thanks for the great advice.

Fishing is not a sport, it is an art.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Gary Kilmartin (135.26.197.---)
Date: November 21, 2020 06:05PM

For me, the tubing mudhole sells works best. Cut it into very thin rings. Larger rings for larger guides. Easy to adjust while static testing too.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: November 21, 2020 07:33PM

with my poor sight and not much finger dexterity, i just start a few wraps on the blank and slip the guide under the last wrap and procede to wrap down from the ring end to the toe end..no tape or rubber bands to fumble with..makes micros much simpler...

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Gary Weber (173.241.113.---)
Date: November 21, 2020 07:58PM

I use elmers glue on small guides that I can not secure in other ways. I need to hold pressure on the guide for about a minute so that the guide does not come off when I take my finger off the guide foot. Then I let the guide dry for an hour before wrapping. It is time consuming, i build only a few rods, so it works for me. I do wrap the feet with tape while finding the position for the guides. So far, I have not seen any problems doing it this way.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 21, 2020 10:26PM

I use the guide foot adhesive and have for years, works great on even the smallest single foot guides. And yes, as mentioned above after wrapping you can stil slightly position the guides.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2020 12:40PM by Phil Erickson.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: November 21, 2020 10:50PM

Danny,
With respect to thread tension:

For myself, I wrap the guides just as tight as possible that is consistent with just barely being able to adjust a guide position using two thumbs on the guide and against the blank. If I wrap the guides with less tension, I end up with issues of one sort or another.

Go to a store that carries body shop supplies and buy a roll or two of 1/16th inch wide, and a roll or two of 1/8th inch wide masking or striping tape.

I always use this 1/8th inch tape for small guides and use 1/4 inch wide tape for the larger stripper guides and other large guides.

For a double footed guide, it is very simple to wrap the guides. First, after prepping the guide to have a nice thin edge on each of the guide feet, I always do the final guide prep by running the guide across an arkansas stone to insure that the underside of the gide foot is perfectly flat and has no hanging metal fragments on the underside of the guide foot.

Then, I wrap one side of the guide very tightly to the rod blank in the correct orientation. I remove the tape from the guide foot and wrap that side of the guide foot.

I have never, and will never use any sort of adhesive to hold a guide in place. As far as I am concerned, any adhesive that is under the guide foot, is just contamination that may interfere with the appearance of the finished rod or doing the final alignment of the guide foot.

For very small micro guides, I use small dental ligatures to hold the guide tight to the blank. I will push an appropriate number of dental ligatures down the rod blank to be sure that I have enough on the blank, plus a couple of spare, in case I have to cut one off to make a correction during the wrapping process.

To hold very small guides in place for the initial placement - a pair of Medical clamps or hemostats work very well. I always keep three or 4 tweezers handy, 3 or 4 hemostats handy, as well as a couple of scalpels for making precision cuts.

For cutting thread when doing guide wraps, I use small very fine tipped fly tying scissors with large loops for the fingers. When first starting to tie rods, I used a single edged razor blade that works all right, but I also had to rewrap several guides because I would nick a thread wrap when making the cut. But, with the fine tipped fly tying scissors, there is never an issue in nicking a thread wrap and if you hold the thread under tension when you make the cut with the scissors, you really lave no thread tag showing above the guide wrap.

For example, this is a pair of scissors that may be the very one that I have used for years, or one that is very close to the one that I have used for years. About once a year, I will sharpen the scissor, but that is all that I have to do, to continue using the scissors on a daily basis rod cutting thread wraps.

[tackle-box.net]

Best wishes.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: David Baylor (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: November 22, 2020 06:20AM

I too use the tubing from Mud Hole that Gary and I assume Donald referred to. As Gary mentioned, you can cut it in any width you want. A very handy feature. It makes guide placement a breeze, and by using the various sizes on different areas of the blank, holds the guides very securely to the blank. And you can also reposition it on the guide foot as you're wrappling, which is something you can't easily do with masking tape.

I'll often use 2 thinly cut bands to secure a guide foot, with one very close to the tip of the guide, and another close to the stem of the guide. Once I get the thread started up on the tip I just use a pick to slide the one tube back towards the guide stem. A few more wraps and I cut it off. I've used masking tape, and elastic thread, and for me, the tubing is the way to go.

Just make sure you slide it on the rod blank prior to installing the tip top.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: November 22, 2020 12:48PM

Advice for new rod builders : Masking tape one foot of the guide in the general vicinity you wish to secure it. Tape the other foot. Take three wraps of elastic thread (available at sewing supply stores) around one guide foot, put the thread under tension, tie a square knot and trim thread ends. Slide the knotted wrap up the guide foot toward the guide ring. Don't worry, the thread will be too tight to slide. the slack in your wraps from tying the knot will see to that. Repeat this procedure with the other foot. Take care not to slide a guide foot from under the elastic thread wraps. Use your favorite source to mark the best distance from the butt for the guide eye to be (wax pencil works great) and begin your wrap. When your wraps walk up the guide foot near the elastic thread touch an elastic wrap with a double edge razor and elastic will leap out of your way. Gently slide the guide up, or down or around until the guide is PRECISELY where you want it. The weight of the dangling bobbin and the spool of thread will keep adequate tension on your wraps. Lay a whipping loop facing the rod tip along the guide foot and take about ten more turns of your wrapping thread - taut but not banjo tight - toward the rod butt. Then use one thumb to clamp down the last thread wraps. Maintaining tension with your thumb cut the wrapping thread leaving an 8" to 10" tag end. Maintaining thumb tension on the thread wraps thread grasp both protruding legs of your pull-through loop and pull it toward the rod butt until the tag end of the winding thread emerges from under your wraps. Keep pressing on the wraps with your "pressing" thumb. Grasp the tag end of your wrapping thread and give it a couple gentle perpendicular a tugs to remove excess slack. To avoid a "fuzzy" wrapping maintain CONSTANT tension on the wrapping thread: lay a double-edge razor blade FLAT on top of your wrappings with the edge exactly parallel with the last wrap. Aline Pull straight back toward the butt on the protruding legs of your wrapping thread and just inch [TOUCH] the taut wrapping thread with the razor. It's much safer to touch the thread to the razor than to touch the razor to the thread.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: November 22, 2020 07:21PM

Tubing as mentioned above and orthodontic ligatures, the small o-ring type, or the elastic band type.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: November 22, 2020 11:03PM

Danny,
Welcome to this rod building site, the most important tool for any beginner or veteran alike. You received good advice from all the above and probably any that might follow as well.
Your main question regarded conflicting opinions of gluing or not gluing a guide to the blank prior to thread wrapping and the positive and negative aspects of both. Welcome to rod building = neither are correct or wrong = it is a personal choice left up to the individual rod builder to compare the pros and cons of each method. Well more than the majority of builders probably do not glue the guides in place.
First and foremost, virtually all rod builders will agree to never BOND the guide to the blank. If an adhesive is desired, use a lower temp hot-melt glue such as “guide adhesive” as Norman and Phil mentioned or even craft type hot melt glue. I have no experience with Elmer’s glue as Gary suggested but I would question the benefit of using a water-soluble glue.
Personally, I am the exception to the rule and like to use guide foot adhesive but certainly not enough to ooze out from under the foot which will compromise the ability of the subsequent application of thread epoxy to entirely fill the tunnel left by the wrapping thread bridging between the top of the guide foot and the blank. I machined all the pieces of the uprights of the wrapper I fabricated which hold the blank within .005in of each other and also designed a fixture to automatically hold each guide precisely to the centerline of the blank = there is no need to sight-align all the guides after they are mounted with guide adhesive. Admittedly, very few have such a luxury. None the less, I still additionally incorporate the tiny rubber bands used prior for static placement of the guides and even thin strips of masking tape if required; the tiny feet of those tiny micro guides need all the help they can get to stay precisely put while wrapping. Additionally, a thin film of guide foot adhesive will insulate the foot from possibly nicking the blank from use (similar to an under-wrap) but is probably not of much concern with lighter rods.
As Michael mentioned, increasing the thread tension may help to secure the foot from moving, but it can also squeeze the foot out of position as the thread starts to climb up the ramp of the foot = back off the tension for the first few wraps as it starts to climb up the foot then increase.
Donald offered a technique new to me which intrigues me = I will certainly try it out. While it initially seems very effective; my only concern is the hump in the wrapping thread as it passes over the underlying securing thread. Thanks Donald.
Roger is a well respected rod builder and fabricator as well. He has also offered valuable information although I disagree with his dislike of guide foot adhesive.
After all is said and done, opinions are best served simply as a basis to compile information to develop one’s own procedure which suits them the best. Although I am comfortable and confident with my procedure to secure guides to a blank prior to wrapping, I will certainly experiment with Donald’s suggestion. We are all here to learn!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: November 23, 2020 07:05PM

How does one move the guides into the proper positions along the blank during the static load test if they are glued to the blank? Using bands makes this process simple and can be used to align the guides nearly perfectly prior to wrapping.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 23, 2020 07:42PM

Lynn, one cannot! I use the guide adhesive only when ready to wrap, before that for static test I tape them. OK, so why don't I leave the tape on them? Because I dislike dealing with the tape on single foot guides while wrapping.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: Danny Smith (---)
Date: November 23, 2020 07:48PM

Wow great response Mark. You answered all of my questions and then some. I was not even aware of the bands for securing the foot. I will try this for sure. Since I originally asked this question, I made myself a wrapping jig with tensioner and I was amazed at how much this helped. My wraps were was too loose. Just poorly done compared to my new wraps. I was also not tightening the final wrap and pull through very well. i wish my college professors would have been as good at teaching as you guys. I can't believe how much I have learned in the past few days of trying your suggestions and watching the suggested videos. Thanks all.

Fishing is not a sport, it is an art.

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Re: Gluing guides
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: November 24, 2020 09:40AM

Phil,
If you have a few spools of different width masking tape, it makes it very easy to use tape to tape on any guide.

I will generally use a piece of tape that has a width that is about 1/2 or less of the width of the guide foot. This lets one put 4-5 wraps on a guide foot before needing to remove the tape. Plenty for a reasonably secure guide mount before wrapping the rest of the guide.

I purchase different width masking tape a body shop and paint supply stores who cater to the painters of automobiles that need the various width tape to do their thing with respect to painting vehicles.

Best wishes.

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