As I seem to be incapable of flaming a finish, no matter how quickly I run the torch over it, I was wondering if anyone has used a handheld lamp with a heat bulb in it? I'm assuming I am cooking the finish, due to the number of minuscule bubbles I am getting. I have been using a standard alcohol torch, and running it quickly back and forth a couple times under the wrap with the tip of the flame about 1" away spinning at approximately 120 or so RPMs. I've read previous threads about the use of a blow dryer, but my area is in the garage, and I don't think it's feasible to have a dust free environment.

Also considering getting a bottle of the MudHole bubble buster. I just can't take it anymore, taking an otherwise nicely (albeit not perfectly) wrapped rod and seeing these tiny bubbles on the guides!

I have read the articles in the library on better epoxy...I am trying to get "my" method down that I can repeat consistently, but not there yet.

Hold the flame to the SIDE (not directly under the wrap) .. Yes, you are probably correct that you are over heating the finish making it very thin which is releasing bubbles trapped in the weave of the thread.

First of all, I would try to find out why you are having to heat the finish! Done right there is no reason to do it. If you have bubbles in your mix, quit creating them or get rid of them before applying to the wraps. Avoid creating bubbles when applying the epoxy to the wraps by avoiding any brushing.

Good article in the library on proper application of epoxy.

You shouldn't need to use heat. Try putting about 12 inches of thread in your mixing cup, stir it and don't worry about bubbles because the thread will pop all but a few. Once mixed bang your mixing cup on the counter 4 or 5 times, the heavy epoxy will settle to the bottom and bubbles to the top, most of which will pop. Breathe into the cup to pop the balance then apply. Take your time and only apply to as few guides as your comfortable with. If you have a few small bubbles just breathe on it and they'll pop. If you do 3 or 4 guides at a time, once you finish the last one go back to the first to see if any bubbles come out of the thread. If so breathe on it, if its to deep and won't pop, poke it and give it a chance to level. You should be ok.

Keep in mind, its better to apply two thin coats rather then one or two heavy coats.

Phil

X2 Phil Marz. Well said. Heat can create more bubbles. Get a drinking straw and use that to focus you breath on the bubbles. That's enough to remove bubbles. Good luck, MH

Where finish is concerned, it is possible to do too much. Stir slowly and don't brush the finish on and around the wrap. This creates bubbles.

Bubbles which you don't create are bubbles that you will not need to deal with.

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I would suggest doing a search on finish or epoxy application, all dates. That should answer any and all finish questions. Lynn

Well I have gotten an answer to everything except the one I asked. I even got a suggestion to read the articles, which I said I have read in my original post. I have read plenty of posts about applying epoxy, but alas I still end up with some bubbles.

I have watched Doc Ski's (who I'm sure we would all agree is a trusted source of information) YouTube video on applying epoxy. He whips it into a froth of bubbles when he mixes, and then applies a flame to pop any bubbles on the wrap. This creates for him a glassy smooth, bubble free finish. So I'm not convinced it's a problem to use heat; I just have a bad technique of doing so. I have actually used this technique successfully but not able to do so repeatedly. So I'm trying to think outside the box and come up with a technique that works for me that I can repeat (from the library article). I asked about a heat lamp because to me it seems a more gentle form of heat and I don't have to worry about a blow dryer kicking up dust. I may just go back to the trusty Zippo; I've only been using this alcohol torch about a week or two. I have to refill the Zippo each day of use with DNA, but I think it's a smaller flame, and as such, more forgiving.

But while we're on the subject, how do you prevent brushing epoxy between guide feet on a double footed guide? I don't ever brush on a single footed guide wrap or a decorative butt wrap. I just turn the power wrapper on and flow it from the brush. But I like epoxy in the middle of the double footed guides.

alcohol flames are for
I use one of those gas guns that chefs use to crust up the top of custards. works a treat.!! not after the epoxy is on the rod, but before i use it. all bubbles disappear.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2016 07:52AM by Tom Kirkman.

Don't whip it into a froth. That is the start of your problem. You will not find an epoxy formulator on earth that advocates mixing it like that.

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I don't regularly Tom, I just tried it once on a test wrap. I was just using Doc Ski as a reference that it isn't a sin to use heat on epoxy. I time my stirs at around 4 minutes and try to go slow.

Ralph O'Quinn, an epoxy formulator in the rod building business, has said that the heat involved in flaming a finish changes the characteristics of the epoxy which can lead to a more brittle final product. The extent to which this would occur depends, of course, on how much and how long the heat is applied. Most often when folks talk about applying heat to epoxy they are talking about a gentle warming of the epoxy.

Almost everybody will get some bubbles now and then and most will use some form of gentle heat to rectify things. Obviously the best way to deal with bubbles is not to produce them to begin with. You may find that an epoxy mixer is one of the better investments you can make. Even a slow, hand mixed batch will have more bubbles than a batch from a mixer.

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I have my method which leaves me with absolutely zero bubbles. First I mix up the finish, I don't worry about any bubbles in the finish. I then pour it on a plate wrapped in aluminum. This pops most of the bubbles, I then use a coffee straw and blow on what's left of the bubbles. If there's still bubbles left in the epoxy that's when I get my butane torch and gently heat it until the bubbles pop. I then apply the finish while spinning the rod by hand and using a sable hair brush to the threads that have been coated by color preserver to help keep bubbles out and preserve the color of the thread. After I apply the finish, if there are still any bubbles left in the finish I take my coffee straw and then blow gently on the bubbles to pop them. This is what works for me.

Randy,
You indicate that you work in a garage for your drying.
Do you own an air compressor or a leaf blower?

If so, before you start work each day, use the leaf blower and or air compressor to go over your garage. The roof, ceiling, rafters, shelves and floor with the air compressor and blow hose and blow gun or the leaf blower with garage doors open.

Use the compressed air and or leaf blower to blow any dust or dirt out the garage door. Close the door and let everything settle down for a few hours before doing any finish or drying work.

The high velocity air will blow the dust and dirt out of the nooks and crannies and olut the door. Another thing that also helps is to mist the floor with water. That way if dust settles to the floor the damp floor will keep it there and will keep it form moving around.

When I mix epoxy, I mix slowly and do my best to minimize the formation of bubbles. I use a craft stick on the inside of a plastic cup to mix the finish that I mix slowly for two minutes or 120 seconds as measured by the clock.

Then, when I apply finish, I use my power wrapper to turn the rod from 0 - 50-75 rpm for a quick finish application. I start with the butt wraps and work down to the tip. I don't try to smooth the finish or even worry about finish flowing or similar issues. On the initial finish application, I just want to be sure that I get enough finish on the rod to fill the thread, fill the tunnels and have all of the wraps completely coated by thread finish. I spend about 2 minutes to coat the butt wraps and all of the guides on a rod that I am finishing. I don't want any finish running down a guide foot, so if I stop the rod during the finish application, I am sure to stop the rod with the guides pointed up, so that if finish drips, it does not drip down a guide foot.

Then, I go back to the butt guides and using a very bright light and a head mounted magnifier, will go over every spec of thread wrap to be sure that the finish is perfect. If I note any thin spots, I will add a touch of finish, If I notice any thick spots, I will add a touch of heat with the heat gun that I hold in my hand as the rod is turning. Notice, I said a "Touch of heat" I never get the heat gun much closer than about 6 inches from the blank and then only in a sweeping motion to elevate the temperature of the air that is around the thread wraps to elevate the temperature of the finish a bit so that the finish thins and flows nicely.

By applying all of the finish on the rod and then as the rod continues to rotate, many of any potential bubbles have already worked themselves out of the finish. But the application of the gentle heat is enough to thin the finish and allow the bubbles to move to the surface and out of the finish. Again, this is done quickly and normally doesn't take much more than about 3 minutes for the entire length of the rod.

Then, I go back a 3rd time with the rod slowed to about 10-12 constant rpm and critically evaluate every spec of the rod and find and fix any remaining flaws that might have slipped by the first two passes.

Then, I will continue to let the rod rotate for another 10 -15 minutes or so on the rod wrapper for the finish to thicken a bit more and if no more anomalies are detected, the rod - if doing a batch of rods - will be moved to the drum dryer for an overnight drying cycle. At the end of that cycle, the rod is given one more once over and if still perfect will be packaged and shipped.

Notice that this is one + coat of finish. By leaving the rod on the wrapper for the additional 15 minutes or so, if I have found a thin spot or nib finish wash out so to speak, a bit of finish will be added or removed so that I don't have to come back to the rod for another finish application and drying cycle. In a production mode, time is money and if a cycle of finish and drying time can be saved, it should be saved to get more production through the shop.

Once in a very long time, I might find a single guide or spot on a blank that will require an additional add of finish and another drying cycle, but that happens very rarely.

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By the way, if you are worried about contaminating your rod in the garage by using the heat gun, have the rod covered with a layer of plastic sheeting and then use the heat gun all around the dryer and rod to be sure that there is no floating or standing dust anywhere that might end up settling on the rod. Then, wait an hour for any thing blown up to have settled and then uncover the rod and go apply your finish using the heat gun as needed.

I do not use flame and then use only very gentle heat very sparingly as needed for the perfect finish.

Good luck

Roger, that was incredibly detailed, thanks a bunch. Gave me a lot to think about. When my kids are out of the house, maybe I can have my own rod room.

Randy, I didn't mean to imply you hadn't read up on finish methods, it's just that the search feature is often overlooked. Honestly though, I use the straw method both on the finish after mixing and also on the wraps once they are coated, and I have some finish issues myself from time to time, but never with bubbles. Lynn

I think what we get into is......someone who has done it a long time has learned shortcuts. I notice a fair amount of the long term, high volume builders, will use a torch (as in propane) and a lot less care in the mixing/applying stage. They have learned a faster and quicker way, over time and through trial and error, that can provide acceptable results.

I don't know if that is something the "average guy" should aspire to.....until the amount of work demands these time saving shortcuts.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russ,
Well said, and I do agree with your comments.

If you can have the time and proximity, it is nice to spend time at a rod building shop where a lot of rods are being built every day to get a feel for how things are done well and very quickly.

One can spend an afternoon, quietly observing and learn more in an afternoon than several days of reading, watching videos and trying things out on your own.

If the folks are skilled and their products are wonderful, watch, learn and then practice yourself.

But, also, go away with the idea that not necessarily all of the things done at the shop are something that you want to ever want to do, or maybe your own physical skills and limitations require that the job be done in a different way.
But, your visit will at least you give you a good snap shot of the way that some folks get the job done.

Also, if you can take a tour of some of the big manufacturing sites, Like G.Loomis, Sage, St. Croix or others - you will learn a huge amount in a short amount of time.

In most cases, you will see jobs done in minutes or seconds that you might be spending hours on doing. So, you can see how they get the job done in such a short period of time - compared to what you might be doing and can profit from their experience on the job.

Generally speaking rod building is not rocket science so to speak. It is just a bunch of several rather simple steps. Do each step correctly and you will soon be done with a very nice product.

Be safe

Thanks guys. I really do try to get a good coat without bubbles from the start. I pour it from the cup onto a foil tray I make from aluminum foil. Then I use the straw method to pop bubbles before applying. I'll have to give it a go on the wraps, never done it that way before. In any case I always end up with a few and turned to heat as my solution. But lately its been causing more issues than it solves. I think I may go back to the zippo lighter as they started appearing after I switched to this alcohol torch. Didn't think of this until after I posted hear.

I get that I am not on the level of even some of even the advanced novices. I am just trying to get something down that works for me.

Any thoughts on the double footed guide question?

From my own and others I have observed, I would say that most do not apply epoxy between the guide feet unless there is a full under wrap. It just adds unnecessary weight!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2016 05:52PM by Phil Erickson.