I'm getting ready to build a Batson RX7 8 wt. 13 foot 3-inch four piece spey Rod (1338). I plan to use the rod in both fresh and saltwater. I'm thinking about using All titanium frame ceramic guides.I've read numerous reports posted over the years giving the pros and cons for snakes versus ceramic. Most of what I've read seems to revolve around personal preference. One post acknowledged his astonishment of greater distance with his first casts with ceramics versus his rods snakes. One post expressed concern that single foot ceramics would not be able to withstand the same amount of use that a double foot snake could handle. I guess my real question here is do we have any definitive information on snakes versus ceramics? Does anyone know if any manufacturers has tested the two side by side or have any of you used both enough to render an unbiased observation. I would really appreciate your Personal input.

I'm hoping for some lively conversation on this topic.

Thank you for your input and willingness to share your knowledge.

Jim G

I seriously question whether ceramics will result in greater casting distance - I never found that to be the case. There just isn't that much friction between the line and the rings to make any practical difference between ceramics and snake guides. Ceramics aren't at all fragile, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Ceramics will be "quieter" and will pay out line more smoothly when under pressure from a fish. On a rod of that length, however, you'll also want to consider which guide set will result in the least amount of weight being added to the rod. Single foot titanium ceramics, or double footed snake guides. You'd have to weigh them to be sure.

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Another guide to consider is the Pac Bay Minima -- 4's not 3's

Plus consider that Snake guides have two feet Two more thread wraps More weight On a 13 ft rod consider the weight of twice the thread and finish
Another is the single foot wire guides
Also Recoil guides
if you trust St Croix they put single foot wire guides on there's or at least they used too

Bill - willierods.com

You do not need ceramics with a fly line, as there is no issue of wear. Most mfg formulas use double foot snake guides, however I personally think that is based upon tradition, not necessarily practicality. On the Spey and Switch rods I build, I use single foots everywhere but the stripper. I use both s/f wire and s/f Minima's depending upon the customers preference. No noticeable casting length differences.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2014 08:27PM by Phil Erickson.

Looks like we pretty much eliminated 2 foot snake guides due to weight. I agree with Phil in that sometimes I think we do things just out of tradition without questioning the real outcome. I would assume that single foot wires weigh less than single foot titanium ceramics? I'll have to check out this Minima Bill suggested. Sounds like were down to single foot some things? What would you make your deciding factor be, weight, strength, a combination of both?

Guides don't need to be any stronger than the rod. And rarely is a fish going to damage a guide. That sort of thing happens due to fisherman abuse, accident, etc. Less weight is always a winner, as long as the product will do what you want it to do.

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Jim,
I would not bet that the double footed snake guides will result in any more weight than the single foot guides. Snake guides simply do not weigh very much.

There might be a gram or two difference in weight, but I doubt that you would feel the difference when casting.

Be safe

On a 13' rod
Got to figure Even cutting it down too maybe 11 guides
The rod is already Tip heavy

So even at 11 guides That means 22 Extra guide wraps plus even one GOOD coat of light finish
And of course there will be Boo Boo's so ya sand and recoat

I read posts here of builders trying to get EVERY little amount of weight off there rod ???

Never tried it but I would think a Snake guide - Rebent - would equil a single foot wire guide So we shoud be talking just thread wrap weight ????

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2014 04:46PM by bill boettcher.

My deciding factor is weight. The additional weight of having two wraps per guide on double feet is not insignificant, even if the guide itself is light!

I personally like Minima's on my rods, but some of my customers much prefer the appearance of wire guides.It is extremely rare for me to build anymore fly rods with double feet.

So if I understand this, it would make more sense on a 9' 8 wt. 4 pc fly rod that I'm building , to use single foot guides of some sort. There for reducing the overall weight
since I am gonna have more wraps due to the wraps at the ferrules. Or am I wrong?

Thanks
Mark

Reducing the number of wraps does reduce the weight - you're cutting the amount of thread and finish (most of the weight is in the finish if you use epoxy). But if the guides aren't equally light, you just be adding that weight right back with a heavier guide.

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I assume you will have the ferrule wraps regardless of the guides you use.

Correct sir.

Mark

As I said earlier, if you use snake guides, it is doubtful that the finished rod will be little different than if you used single foot guides.
But certainly the snake guides are a much tougher guide that will take beating through the brush much better than a single foot guide.

Be safe

In that case take a look at Recoil guides Flexible for the bush

Bill - willierods.com

On a spey rod I doubt there is much significance of the weight of thread and finish using double foot snake guides when the line you are casting weighs in at around 500 grains. Balance is not really an issue when the grip is 14" plus a 4" reel seat and a 4" rear grip. I find that shooting head connections pass through snake guides better than single foot guides when you're trying to bring the fish in, and they're more durable in the drift boat, in the truck, on the trail because they don't snag on stuff as easily. Icing in freezing weather is a consideration too.

Greg
Aptos, CA

I 100% agree with Greg. It's all about performance and where your going with this equipment and how you treat your equipment. In my experience if you hand a blindfolded person a 13'2" 7wt with snake guides then give him the same rod with single foots he or she will notice no difference at all. Casting distance all depends on your ability to adjust to the rod your throwing.