Hi,
I just wanted to ask if anyone knows why there isn't a single rodbuilding manufacterer that supplies solid titanium winding checks, trim rings and other rod building metal parts? I used to find them in the Matagi catalogue (fuji metal parts) but I believe they also don't sell them anymore...I never understood why people spend a lot of money on solid titanium guides and then finish a custom rod with cheap titanium-coloured aluminium checks and trim rings...Just my humble opinion but I think the industry is really missing the point here...I know turn my own parts in duplex steel (1.4462) at work but it is a pain since I'm not a experienced metal worker :-)
What do you guys think?
Greetz,
jeroen

Not enough marketing pressure to command the costs of the guides.

Guides frames are usually titanium alloys. As a metal Titanium is rather chemically reactive and would react with oxygen. Titanium alloys are much less reactive and are used in frames on guides. However, cost is one reason for the lower availability. If you want a high end guide, then you can search out the companies that make them (see our list of sponsors on the left). You can also get rings made from silicon carbide which is extremely hard and take a very smooth finish. You should expect to pay a high price especially if you plan to use large rings. I hope this helps.

Mike Blomme

Sorry for the double post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2014 11:47AM by Spencer Phipps.

I think I've seen some custom Ti work done by Lemke Reel Seats for fly rods. He designed and built for many years at Struble. I imagine he can do about anything you can afford. He does beautiful, imaginative work.

Michael Blomme Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Guides frames are usually titanium alloys. As a
> metal Titanium is rather chemically reactive and
> would react with oxygen. Titanium alloys are much
> less reactive and are used in frames on guides.
> However, cost is one reason for the lower
> availability. If you want a high end guide, then
> you can search out the companies that make them
> (see our list of sponsors on the left). You can
> also get rings made from silicon carbide which is
> extremely hard and take a very smooth finish. You
> should expect to pay a high price especially if
> you plan to use large rings. I hope this helps.
>
> Mike Blomme

I noticed today in a local magazine that a company is selling 100% solid Titanium guides. I always thought that Titanium was brittle when used alone thus the alloy added, mainly nickle. I have seen many rodbuilders claim their guides are of 100% Titanium. Good topic.

Pat Barnard

Pat,
Some melts such as aluminum form a hard oxide coating that protects the metal underneath the oxide from further erosion. Other metals like iron form an unstable oxide (rust) that flakes off. As I mentioned earlier the titanium is a reactive metal. The reduction potential of Titanium is -0.86. Any metal that has a negative reduction potential is reactive. Metals such as silver, gold, and copper are unreactive in air. These metals all have positive reduction potentials.

On the other issue you raise: the ductility and malleability are also important to how the metal can be used. I know that titanium is rather brittle, but its many alloys are not. Another issue is that some manufacturers call their zirconia rings zirconium rings. Pure Zirconium metal would make a poor ring that would not last. Zirconia is a ceramic type of material that is made from Zirconium and oxygen. The resulting oxide is relatively inert, quite hard, and can be shaded to a very smooth surface--the ideal properties that are needed in a guide ring. I you ask the people at Fuji, Batson, and American Tackle they will say that their frames are 100% titanium alloy.

Mike Blomme

I am sorry but I misspelled metals on the earlier post..

Pat,
Some metals such as aluminum form a hard oxide coating that protects the metal underneath the oxide from further erosion. Other metals like iron form an unstable oxide (rust) that flakes off. As I mentioned earlier the titanium is a reactive metal. The reduction potential of Titanium is -0.86. Any metal that has a negative reduction potential is reactive. Metals such as silver, gold, and copper are unreactive in air. These metals all have positive reduction potentials.

On the other issue you raise: the ductility and malleability are also important to how the metal can be used. I know that titanium is rather brittle, but its many alloys are not. Another issue is that some manufacturers call their zirconia rings zirconium rings. Pure Zirconium metal would make a poor ring that would not last. Zirconia is a ceramic type of material that is made from Zirconium and oxygen. The resulting oxide is relatively inert, quite hard, and can be shaded to a very smooth surface--the ideal properties that are needed in a guide ring. I you ask the people at Fuji, Batson, and American Tackle they will say that their frames are 100% titanium alloy.

Mike Blomme

Hi Spencer,
I wonder if that is titanium alloy or pure titanium metal. The formation of titanium dioxide from Titanium and oxygen is about -945 kj/mole. The negative sign make this a reaction that occurs with the evolution of heat that indicates that titanium dioxide is more stable that Titanium and oxygen separately. This is why I think that most uses of the metal is in the form of alloys. While this may be an interesting thread, i have retired from teaching chemistry and will return to building fishing rods.

Mike Blomme

I find that hard to believe Michael... so what you are actually saying is that if I buy a bar of titanium grade 5 (which, if you like is actually an alloy since it contains Al. And Va.) and I turn a winding check out of it, it Will react with air as in some from of corrosion? I am no specialist but I don't believe this! I work in the water treatment industry and we use alot of duplexsteels which are very corrosion resistant! I've always heard that Titanium is the only thing that outperforms these duplexsteels!
Kind regards,

Jeroen,

Quite the opposite. As you say, your titanium grade 5 is an alloy, it is not pure Ti due to the Al and Va, and is less than 90% Ti. The point Michael was making is that pure titanium is a bad choice due to its reactive nature, but titanium alloys can be very stable and suitable for use in wet and briny applications. I'm sure your Ti grade 5 would work nicely.

There are plenty of instances of marketing materials from rod building suppliers and manufacturers that certainly read well, but don't say what they are intended to from a scientific standpoint, but are much closer than the vast majority of marketing in the general fishing tackle industry.

Joe

Pure Titanium is difficult (and expensive) to machine. Titanium alloys such as REC's Nickel/Titanium (NiTi) are easier to work with, free from corrosion, shatter-proof, flexible, and retain their shape after being deformed. They are pretty much bomb proof, which could not be said for solid (pure) Titanium rod components if there were such things.

Thanks for all the posts. Michael, I understand your comments entirely. I know of a few guide manufacturers that boast 100% solid Titanium guides, marketing trick ??; maybe, but I have to agree with what Phil states: if there is such a thing as pure Titanium rod components.. Thanks again.

Pat Barnard

Mike B.
In the scheme of things I don't think it matters much. I seen some beautiful custom work done by this gentleman on rods built be Edge Rods and others. Jeroen just wanted something not available normally.

Thank you for all your input folks!
What I actually meant was winding checks, trim rings etc... in titanium alloys that are light and don't rust (like for example grade 5)
I did not mean "pure" titanium, so I apologie for the confusion!
Then again...don't blame me...I'm Belgian :-)
Grtz,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2014 12:53PM by jeroen teugels.

No apologizes needed. We all learn something when we ask, especially on this board. My post was on 100% pure Titanium used on guides, like stated, if there is such a thing. Good informative responses on the subject as well. Thanks.

Pat Barnard

Hi Jeroen,
I probably didn't make myself clear. Alloys have different properties than each of the metals they are made from. Many Many years ago I used nickel silver ferrules on my multi-piece rods. Today nickel silver ferrules are still used on Bamboo rods. These alloys are much more resistant than nickel itself. The same is true for titanium alloys. The individual metal atoms in the alloy form a strong network which is often called a "solid solution." This enables the alloy to be far more resistant to corrosion. Very often aluminum is anodized and this hard surface on the aluminum protects it from corrosion. However, if you scratch this surface down to the un-anodized layer, corrosion will start.

I don't know what duplex steels are, but I suspect they hardened like the Pac Bay Minima guide rings. This must give them at least a corrosion resistant or even corrosion proof surface. As I understand it, Stainless Steel is an alloy which is more corrosion resistant than regular steel. I hope this helps.

Hi Jeroen,

I am also part Belgian (father's side, but scottish on my mom's side).
Mike Blomme

Half Belgian, half scottish...You must be one @#$%&. of a drinker then Mike ;-)
Duplex and superduplex are very corrosion resistant and tough stainless steels that are used in all kinds of industries! A lot of the bolts and nuts of our very large pumps at work are in these materials as they have good mechanical properties and corrosion resistance. I've just turned some trim rings and winding checks from old bolts but it is one @#$%& of a job! I'll be using them on a thorne bros' predator MH rod that I'm building for pike fishing and will maybe see a little bit of saltwater too!
Best regards,

I believe what a manufacture means if they say something is 100% titanium, is that the item is solid titanium alloy rather than a titanium alloy plated ss steel.