Laurant,
Let me tell you a little story that sold me on REC Recoil Tip-Tops and their stuff generally.

I owned a Winston 9'0" BIix #8 with REC Recoil guides and tip-top. The grip fell apart after two seasons. Sent it back to Winston for replacement. When I received rod back it felt entirely different. Not as responsive - overloaded with line I usually used.

Called them on it claiming that they must have shipped different rod back to me.

It seems that they had received a lot of complaints about the REC Recoil tip-tops that they were ugly. So they did me a favor and up-dated my rod with a confentional fly tip-top.

So if you want to make your rod even a better performer, replace the tip topwith an REC Recoil.
Herb

We sell TONS of double foot snakes, but, I would have to say that my personal vote goes to single foots every time, for every fly application including double handed rods. Bill's comment about the double foot snake stiffening each section that a double foot covers definitely holds water based on my experience. And, double foots do add weight, most of it coming from doubling the amount of finish needed. The majority of the USA OEM rods do seem to use double foots still and I can't see why, tradition possibly. I shook many of the new OEM fly rods at ICAST this year and I repeatedly found myself severely disappointed (Sage's Method and Scott's Radian being exceptions, both are awesome.) In most cases I believe the rod blanks to be sound. The actions just seemed to be ruined by the guide trains, specifically, too large and/or too many strippers, and double foot snake guides.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Micro single foot guides on fly rods can have problems passing nail knots, but single foot guides seem to cast well for me, particularly those with ceramic rings.
Few if any blindfolded fly casters could reliably identify a guide train weight saving of 20 grains on otherwise identical 5 wt. (or greater) rods. Advertising claims abound, but measured, objective experiments in this area are rare indeed. If you know of any please share their source.
For any fly rods which will be used to fight "big" (25 pound +) fish I prefer double foot snake guides for their durability and because if a twist knot in my fly line develops while fighting a nice fish I can flip the rod upside down and the geometry of a double-foot snake guide will sometimes allow the obstruction to "snake" through a double foot snake guide.

Guides won't stiffen a rod blank over it's total length. In fact, the stiffer (heavier) the guides used on the rod are, the softer the rod will become. It's a matter of weight. Take as many double foot, stiff, guides that are needed and wrap them end to end all along the total length of your rod blank. The resulting rod won't be stiffened, it'll be softened and by a wide margin.

...................

I would agree that the double foots will soften the blanks action overall due to the added weight. But Tom, do you believe that the double foot snake has no effect on the section of blank that it spans, a negligible effect, etc?

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Take the entire span from each guide on a 9 foot fly rod. Let's say you've got 7 or 8 inches total spanned. Even if you did manage to somehow stiffen that short amount, it would have less effect than the addition of weight added. The net result is that the rod will be softer. You can't make a rod stiffer by adding guides.

Run the ERN number for a bare blank. Add guides, now run the ERN again. It'll be lower. The AA (Action Angle) however, will be the same. Action won't change, power and speed will.

.............

Good post Tom. I agree that the added weight will have a far greater overall slowing effect than the double foot will have stiffening effect. I would be curious to know if this is taken into account during blank design at any of the rod factories, or, if new blanks are tested using multiple component configurations. I know that around here I go straight for the single foots (wire or Minima) and use as few strippers as I feel I can get away with.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Yep Tom is correct Like tying a rock to the tip

Then it also has to do with what kind of blank
I find the IM6 even when said Fast Action having no power and more of a Mod blank so I would think Lighter guides better for it
Then a Tip flex fast action blank would probably be able to handle and SIC guides

Bill - willierods.com

Although this would seem to fly in the face of good rod design, I've talked to several well known blank designers about this and not a single one has told me that they factored in the weight of the components expected to be added when designing the blank. I once had quite a thorough discussion on this with Steve Rajeff and he said they just didn't take the component weight into consideration during the blank design phase. He said that if components were wisely chosen with regard to avoiding unnecessary weight, he didn't feel it would make enough of a difference to worry over.

.............

I wonder if he uses the rods in question Compared to custom built and lighter rods
The more weight will get the arm tired quicker and not be a fun day fishing ???
After time the muscles will get used to the weight -- But why If it can be made lighter

Bill - willierods.com

Harry,
My typical build for fly rods reduces the number of guides by one.
The upper 30% of the rod length uses single foot light wire titanium guides.
The lower 70% uses double foot snakes with ceramic stripper.
The dynamic effect of the components inertia is very high in the top 30%.
The dynamic affect diminishes as the weight approaches the center of rotation.
The highest dynamic affect is the tip top as it's furthest from the hand. Small changes are felt where they are placed furthest from the rod grip.
If all the componets were placed close to the grip the rod response would be very quick.
If those same components were placed at the tip of the same blank response would be very slow.
My main priority is the rods fishability.
I build a rod that casts easily and responds quickly. Fast hookset without snapping light tippets, easy casting with accurate location within the angler's ability. Less work with better results. This is especially true when making several hundred casts per day.
The faster the rod responds to input the more control the fisherman has.

Gene Moore

I saw one of Gene's rods, a spinning rod, at the ICRBE a few years ago. It didn't seem to work as well as stated. No idea on the fly rods.

when building a fly rod, I always experience the same disheartening process: the bare blank feels incredible, and as you go wrapping the guides, you feel you're just slowly spoiling it.
(you'll feel it if you are -- as I'm afraid I am -- fool enough to play with an half wrapped rod. Very instructive, though. try it.)

Eugene is right though: what happens in the lower half of a fast rod doesn't really matter.

net result: on the higher 1/3, I'm maniac about weight and try to save every fraction of a gram I can.
A good tip I learned from Tom here: urethane finishes are definitely lighter (and probably stronger).

_______________________________________________
If I'm not going to catch anything, then I'd rather not catch anything on flies.

Prostaff Rodhouse
[www.rodhouse.fr]

The search for lighter weight is relentless if not always on track. I'm thankful for that since we haven't [yet] been approached with a scheme to "balance" our fly rods by adding a couple of ounces of weight to the butt end.The quickest and easiest way to remove 40 grains of leveraged weight from your fly fishing outfit is to drop from a 6 weight outfit to a 4 weight outfit.

you're right Phil. I also find that going from 9' to 8'6 means a world of difference.

_______________________________________________
If I'm not going to catch anything, then I'd rather not catch anything on flies.

Prostaff Rodhouse
[www.rodhouse.fr]

This has been a really neat string so far, thanks to everyone for such interesting input. My personal opinion on balanced fly rods and gear rods is that weight added for the purpose of balancing a rod does provide greater casting comfort and less fatigue. The drawback is less overall casting feel and fishing sensitivity based on my personal empirical evidence. In most situations I prefer the lightest possible set up even thought I may end up with a sore arm at the end of the day. I have used counter weighted drift boat oars, baseball bats, etc, and they seem to be less alive than their non-weighted equivalents.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

If I were going to add weight to the butt of a fly reel, I'd do it by using a larger reel. Or, by building one of the adjustable reel seats we've profiled in RodMaker a couple times so you can shift the reel weight to a position where the same weight can be used for the desired balance.

...........

I have really enjoyed this discussion as well. Getting off topic here, but another way to balance the reel is to wrap some lead core around the arbor before loading the line. Also, adding a small fighting butt when you build the rod moves the fulcrum toward the tip without really adding much weight.

Greg
Aptos, CA

Sometimes I hear folks say things and it makes me feel like I must be weird and do something way different.

So....in terms of balance....is there anyone else who simply shifts how they hold the rod/reel, after casting it, to get the best balance? For me, moving my hand just a tad can make quite a difference.

Baitcasters are a little tougher:)

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russell,
X10.
Build as light as possible and move your hand if the rod isn't balanced.

Be safe