I have only built a few rods and havent had any problems. But recently I built 3 for my son and on every one the guides are getting loose.I did everything the same except he wanted them fast so only used 1 coat of pro kote medium build and 24 hours after finish was applied he was fishing with them. Was this to soon or did i not get enough finish on them.

Hi Paul,
Guides are held on by thread not finish although it does make them more secure. You need more tension on your thread when binding. You need enough tension so that the guides can be just moved after binding to allow for alignment. If they move easily then there isn't enough tension.
One coat of finish can be suffecient but you shouldn't be able to see any thread. Some guys use one thick coat while others prefer two of lesser thickness. Finish takes a few days to reach maximum strength so it is best if they are not used during that period, although plenty of people can't wait to use a rod and do so the next day often without a problem. I like to leave them for a week before use.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

There could be any number of contributing factors to this problem. Do a search of the subject and you will get all sort of ideas. I know I had this problem from time to time as well and found that the source was that I wasn't getting enough finish through the thread down to the guide foot. Also, I thought I read once that only about 30% of the strength comes from the thread and the rest comes from the finish.

Paul,
Do you "prep" the guides, or are you wrapping them as they come from the manufacturer.
The guides come with thinner feet today than they have in the past. But many folks still find it to their advantage to "prep" or thin the thickness of the guide foot - especially near the end to allow for a smother thread transition from blank to guide foot.
If you do prep, you may find that the rod wrapping goes better and you can get a tighter and more even finish.

When I personally prep guides I use belt sander with the guide held at right angles to the spinning belt. Normally, I use about 220 grit to prep guide feet. As a result, I have placed fine grooves in the guide feet at right angles to the length of the guide foot. These fine grooves tend to hold the thread and make it harder for the guide foot to slip out from the guide foot.

Other folks tend to use the locking wrap at the end of the guide foot to help secure the foot under the wrap. This works particularly well for small guides that have an exceptionally short foot. i.e. the more wraps placed on a foot, the easier it is to have a very secure foot.

But I have to repeat Col's comments - your likely issue goes back to wrapping your guides with thread tension that is too loose. I generally wrap with enough tension so that I can Just Barely move the guide for alignment. Normally, never an issue with loose guide feet.

But, if I can move a guide with just one finger after wrapping, I know that this guide will be an issue, so I cut it off and rewrap with much tighter tension.

Good luck

The thread holds the guide in place. Finish protects the thread. It is important to get some CP or finish into the tunnels alongside the guide foot which tends to stabilize the guide foot.

Most likely you didn't use enough thread tension (Col and Roger gave you good guidelines for proper tension) and the rod was fished too soon after finishing. The guide shifted right out of the gate and are likely to move or pivot side to side unless you go back in and fix things.

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Thanks for your quick responses. I will redo them tighter this time.

Paul,
You may also find that as you go from the butt of the rod to the tip of the rod, you may have to adjust tension slightly. i.e. it seems that often, one uses a bit more tension on the thread for the butt section of the rod and the larger guides, than the tip section with the smaller guides. But that may also be dependent on the thread that is being used as well.

Also, if you happen to use a thread tension system, that puts tension on the end of the spool, you will find that the tension will change as the spool goes from a full spool to an empty spool.

REW

I do prep the guide feet but i also could move for alignment with only a little pressure on the side.

Hi Paul,
The guides should be fairly difficult to move so if yours moved easily then you need nore thread tension. Do a few test wraps on guides with increasing tension. Get as much tension as you can but still being able to just move the guide. Double footers are easier to move as you can "walk" them. Single footers can be a lot harder to move and you may have to use a burnishing tool along the foot and push on that. If needed then be careful not to damage the thread. An old piece of sheet laid on the thread will prevent damage. If you are using single footers then get Forhan locks on them. There is an article in the library and they aren't difficult if you don't use them.
As Tom mentioned ensure you get the tunnels filled with cp and/or finish as that definitely will improve the stability.
Resist the temptation to use them the next day, wait at least three days.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

Isn't it more accurate to say that the thread holds the guide to the blank and both the thread and finish hold the guide in place on the blank. The difference being that if you can adjust a guide without thread, but cannot adjust a guide after finish is applied and cured, then the finish contributes to affixing it in place.

Sort of. If you affix guides to the blank with epoxy alone, you can pop them off quite easily. So the epoxy doesn't really hold the guide to the blank. However, it does tend to stabiliize the guide within the thread wrap.

.......................

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sort of. If you affix guides to the blank with
> epoxy alone, you can pop them off quite easily. So
> the epoxy doesn't really hold the guide to the
> blank. However, it does tend to stabiliize the
> guide within the thread wrap.
>
> .......................

Tom,

Maybe I didn't make a clear enough distinction between a) holding the guide to the blank and b) affixing it in place. They are not the same thing. Also, I did use the words "contributes to affixing" not just affix as you suggest. I do think however that your use of the word stabilize is more correct than my use of affix, so if you don't mind I will modify my text to read "thread holds the guide to the blank and both the thread and finish stabilize the guide in place on the blank."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2013 05:58PM by John E Powell.

Don't you think it's sort of like plywood and laminated structural beams? Stronger than each component separately? All components must be done right?

Also, I know many will argue with this, but having taken guides off whose windings were treated with CP and guides whose windings were not treated with CP, there is a significant difference.

Michael,
You use the words, "guides off whose windings were treated with CP and guides whose windings were not treated with CP, there is a significant difference."

By your use of these words, do you find that the thread is attached better to the guide and to the rod blank - with either the use of CP or without the CP. i.e. do you find a difference in how well the guides are attached - depending on whether CP Is used on the thread or not?

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I generally wrap guides with non NCP thread and generally use no CP. I like the translucent look with thread and finish used this way. I have never conducted any adhesion tests on thread and guides when CP is user or not. But it always seemed to me that when finish was applied to non CP coated thread that the finish seemed to really penetrate into the thread. Conversely, when CP is applied, it seems to me that the finish simply lays on top of the CP coated thread or the NCP style thread.
But I have 0 data which would indicate that one or the other way would be more effective in keeping a guide in place.

Be safe
Roger

When I take guides off that have had their threads treated with CP all I have to do is cut into the thread at the foot of the guide, then peel it off in one big piece using a finger nail to pick at it. Without CP the thread adheres much more strongly to the blank and the guide making it much tougher to get the guide off. Finger nails often do not do the job. Pretty high tech, right?

Michael and Roger,
I stripped quite a few of my own builds and re built them. All threadwork contained cp and finish penetration was right through to the blank through over and underbinding. After I cut off the thread along the guide feet the guides were still very difficult to move, so difficult I think you could have fished with the rods and not have a guide come off. These days I use madeira thread with three coats of cp and have never had a guide that looks like moving. I stripped one of those that had a single overbinding and it was still attached pretty well, no chance of coming loose. However it wasn't as good as those with an underbind. Finish doesn't adhere to smooth shiny surfaces very well and I find I get a lot better adhesion with the underbind than without but they still don't move. I've been building for over 35 years, have always used cp and never had a guide come loose. I know a lot of guys don't use cp because they think it will weaken the guide attachement. Personally I don't beleive that is the case and I've built enough over a long period to back that up.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

I've never had a guide come loose either, was just commenting on how difficult or easy to remove, which might be related to the subject. I also do no burnishing of the blank before wrapping. I've never had a guide loosen so don't want to chance screwing up the finish outside the winding.

Hi Michael,
Thanks for the reply. There is a lot of room for testing in this area. Some guys refuse to use cp on guide wraps while others like me use it all the time and don't have problems.
I think thread tension has a lot to do with guide adhesion, more so than the use of cp. However proper finish application goes a long way to getting more than just a glass like appearance.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

Col Chaseling, can you tell me what you mean by underbinding? I'm not familiar with that term, thanks.

Chester

May your line be tight and your beverages be cold!

Hello Chester.

An "Underbinding" is what it sounds like, a binding (or Wrap) put on the rod before you put the guide on, some people will epoxy the under binding (or Wrap) before putting the guide on and some will not.

Under bindings (or Under Wraps) are used Mostly on heavy rods, although some people will use them on all rods.

Hope that helped, take care & tight wraps.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.