Just what the forum needs another guide set up question.

I have been doing a bit of calculating for my next rod and have hit a hurdle.The rod will be 7ft long or 2.15 mtr.The reel a Saragosa 14000 which has a spool dia
of 70mm.

So by using the 27x method the choke point will be 1690mm when you add about 400mm for distance from the butt to the tip of the spindle i am just about at the
tip top.

I tried the NGC set up and putting the spool dia of 70mmand the spindle height of 104mm and pushing the calculate button it came up with a choke point of 1890
for a variety of guides that i wished to use.That is going to be past the tip top.The best i could get was the KLh guides for a choke point of 1614.

So i was wondering if i should ditch the 27x here and just try to make something up.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.By the way the blank will be 12 to 25 lb if that helps.

cheers

T

Ray Balmforth
Figtree
NSW
Australia

Where the tip lies is of zero importance. What is important is the distance from the reel to the choke guide. Anything beyond that is just extra length covered with whatever number of running guides are required. Try to get the idea out of your head that there must be a specific length or distance beyond the choke guide to the tiptop. That portion of the rod doesn't matter.

If you use the 27X, just put the choke guide where the factor locates it. It makes no difference if the tiptop is 2 inches or 20 inches beyond that point. Everything that needs to be done will be done between the reel and choke guide. That's the whole point of using that factor.

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Hi Ray,
That's one place where the 27X method falls down, a large spool diameter and not a long rod. Look at the rapid choke and see what you get. I had the same problem with a spin stick so I just set the guides up so it worked out well with a static test and test cast it and it was ok. Cast fine with the leads slugs I make.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

It doesn't fall down - it's still correct. If the rod is very short and the reel spool is very large and the choke guide location falls beyond the tiptop, the tiptop is the choke guide.

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Hi Tom,
It maybe correct but doesn't work with stress distribution. In my case the tip was the choker. The article states that you will never need more than three reduction guides. Three guides and a tip on a 7ft 6 rod doesn't work for me. It ended up with seven guides and a tip to give good distribution. It might not cast quite as good as it could but it's still more than adequate for chasing high speed pelagics for which it's intended.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

Thanks Col and Tom for your replies.The rod is 7ft long from butt to tip.

Tom if i used the tip top as the choker guide would it then become a cone of flight system.And would this change the static load test at all.

Might have to come and check your rod out Col sounds like i am doing something to what you have.I havent ordered anything yet.

cheers

Ray Balmforth
Figtree
NSW
Australia

Clearly you need more than three guides. I sorta wish the article didn't say you would never need more than three reduction guides as I think that causes confusion is these instances. For some of us that size reel on a seven foot blank isn't unusual.

We just need to think of the tip top as our choker guide and to locate the rest of the guides from the tip to the centerline of the spool as called for. Follow that up with a static tast and all is well. If it makes you feel better call it a "cone of flight" layout.

A lot of my spinning rods fall into this area. Don't worry that you need six or seven "reduction guides". That is totally fine in this case. If casting isn't all that important you can push the choke point back a bit and use two or three running guides if that somehow makes you feel better.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

The NGC is a Cone of Flight system from the reel to the choker guide.

The 27X factor wasn't pulled out of a hat to make something look a certain way. It's based on the distance required (for the average set up) between the reel and the choker guide. The length of the rod doesn't play a role in the equation, nor should it. For the same reel, even though you might have two different length rods, the distance between the reel and the choke guide should be the same on both.

In the scenario where the rod is very short and the reel spool very large, that distance may be compromised but you'd still want to keep the choke guide as close to where the factor calls for it to be, therefore, the tiptop.

Now having said all that, line is flexible and you have more than a little leeway in setting up a good guide system. But try to get what you think something is supposed to look like out of your head and concentrate more on how it actually works.

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I'm not trying to knock the 27X syatem. I use it to good effect on other rods and introduced Ray to it when he first started to build. However it doesn't always work with a large diameter spool. Russ's idea will also fall down as you would need to use a lot of different sizes and you mightn't find the correct height especially close to the tip. A lot of different sizes is also against the current trend. I set mine up by moving the choke point closer to the reel (a fair distance) then used four running guides and tried to get the reduction guides in as straght a line as possible. It's not ideal but it casts good enough for my liking and the stress is evenly distributed

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

My point is that if you have a reel and a 27X factor that puts the choke guide at say, 35 inches, and the tiptop is only 32 inches away from the reel, why would you not put the choke guide at 32 inches? Pulling the choke guide in even closer than the maximum amount you have to work with is getting completely away from the thing that makes the NGC work so well.

If the choke guide should be at 35 inches and you only have a possible 32 to work with, the choke should be at 32. Every inch closer moves you further and further from the optimum of that system.

I think many people have the idea that an NGC set up must have some length and some guides beyond the choke guide. In reality, that's just excess length that doesn't matter to the reel and you only add running guides if you have to.


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Hi Tom,
In my case I had to move it a long way otherwise the blank would never have been loaded correctly. I tried to keep the direction changes to a minimum as thats what the system is about. Otherwise it would have had a lot of different sizes. Taking your case if the choke point is 35 and the effective length is 32 and you set it up like that then your probably not going to get close to to even distribution with three reduction guides so you have to use more whether you consider them as reduction guides or running guides doesn't matter. It's a good system for 90% or rods but doesn't give proper distribution in about 10% of cases so you have to do something. Casting might be very important in a lot of cases but IMO stress distribution needs to be the first thing considered with guide placement.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

Thank you so far for all the contributions.I have only built a few light weight rods so far and the 27x method has served me well.I understand what Tom Col and Russell are saying.

I have read and listened to as many builders as i can.If i do use the tip top as the choke point then do i need 8 guides to get to that point if i follow the view of length plus one.I have used
many more than this for some of my builds so its not a view i stick to.But using 3 guides for the reduction before the tip top is ridiculous i understand.

So to keep the cone of flight for the reduction if i use say 8 guides there should not be any guide the same size as this would cause a deviation in the straight line that i am trying to achieve.
And as soon as i go to guides the same size i am creating a choke point at the first guide of the same size.Also as the choke point is past the tip top there would be no running train.

What i am also worried about is the static load position of the guides as i hope to catch some big fish on this rod. As far as i can understand the static load is usually done on the running
train.If there is no running train can you do the static load successfully with the reduction train going past the tip top as i do not want the rod to fail under load.

As i stated earlier i have limited experience in building rods so i rely on the people here to help.This is my first build on a heavy rod and i want the best build possible so i value all
the comments from the experienced builders here.

cheers

Ray Balmforth
Figtree
NSW
Australia

If I'm converting correctly, you're only talking about roughly 66 inches from the reel spool to the tiptop. Knock out 24 to 25 from the reel to the butt guide leaving 40 inches or so from there to the tiptop. There shouldn't be any reason to have 7 or 8 guides in a 40 inch span on a blank of this nature. I'm assuming this is a pretty beefy rod blank.

So going back to making your tiptop the choker guide, just place the other guides on the line path as you'd normally do. No running guides, just what would appear to be a cone of flight system (framing a staight line path and a cone are not quite the same thing - the latter requires much larger rings) Just 4 or 5 guides plus a tiptop should be all you'll need. Although you can use more if you want. There are so many guide sizes available you should still be able to stack as many as you want on the line path and still keep things straight.

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Ray, ideally you want the guides to line up inside of one another....a bit like a gun sight does......each guide circle in the center of each other as you sight down the rod. Then you tweak when doing a static test. I doubt you will need to move the guides much. If anything you might need an extra guide. I fish a lot of spinning gear in the line class that you mention and I also fish for tough fighting saltwater fish. If my rod is a very fast action it isn't unusual for me to have an extra guide out near the tip.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Another thing to think about would be the Microwave butt guide with matching guides
Or
Depending on the knots and how small of a ring they will go though The match guides are higher with smaller rings
What Russell said I call it a Bullseye You see each ring lined up with the previous ring

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2013 09:01AM by bill boettcher.

That's very true. How quickly you can choke the line down has a great deal to do with the line itself. Unless your line is extremely large or stiff, you might try the Microwave or KR systems and find good results.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2013 09:40AM by Tom Kirkman.

Great thread. When you entered the 27X and reel height info in GPS you refer to it as the NGC. IT IS NOT. The NGC on the Anglers Resource site does not consider spool diameter, it considers spool axle angle. At this point in the discussion you do not know the angle of the spool and it would seem very obvious that any method that may move the choke point in should be a welcome exercise. According to NGC, you may have a perfectly manageable choke point. You don't really know...yet. The real issue will be ring size when (if) the NGC brings your choke point back into a reasonable position. Go big.

We constantly see confusion on forums over methods of guide location when it's actually very simple. Pick one and use it. If you don't like the performance, pick another one and use it. Don't pick three and try to use them all at the same time.

Does the 27 x method apply when using microwave guide system?

Jim sorry my bad yes it wasnt NGC i should of said the GPS system using the 27x measurements.

Tom yes this a pretty beefy rod well for me anyway.It will be 12 to 25lb.I think your measurements are pretty much what i have sorted out.Getting the butt guides height sorted out
and getting the rest on the line path to the tip top will go a long way to getting the rod set up correctly.I know when i say cone of flight it is not cone of flight in its proper sense but
rather a long reduction train.I think you know what i mean.

Russell i know what you mean by the bullseye it is what i have used on all of my rods so far and it has worked pretty well.On this set up i should be able to see all the way down
to the tip top if i have the guides placed correctly.Out of interest would you be able to tell me what sort of guides you are using and sizes.

Bill microwave guides could be an option that i havent looked into not sure if they are suitable for the heavier line classes.

I hope i havent confused to many people here and appreciate all the replies.

cheers

Ray Balmforth
Figtree
NSW
Australia

As concerns the Microwave, because you have a special butt guide that does most if not all of the line control in one fell swoop, the line can be brought right down very quickly after that point. For all intents and purposes, the butt guide is the choker guide when using the MicroWave system.

Without knowing the size and type line Ray's using, I can't say for sure if this system would be a good thing to use, but I'm sure any of the American Tackle people can provide information on how suitable it is for use with larger reels and heavier line.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2013 05:26PM by Tom Kirkman.