Hello all,

I have seen that some custom rod builders are making rods that are better at shooting line by using oversized and extra line guides on the fly rods. Can you tell me, is this worth the effort?

It seems the common amount of guides is likely to be rod length + 1 or plus 2 guides. (A 9' rod would have 9 or 10 guides normally..) A shooting style fly rod would have much larger guides and 12-14 guides.

Any thoughts on this? Is weight an issue? Would this make more sense on a faster rod than on a slow one, such as a soft fiberglass rod?

From what I have read, using larger and numerous guides allows the rod to shoot line easier, this is to be helpful on small creeks where you may not have much room for a back cast.

I like the theory, does it work?

Thanks

Jesse Shipe

I have been a fly fisherman for years and years and build only fly rods and have never heard of the concept!

Using guides that are larger than needed, and more than required, only adds unnecessary weight, reducing rod speed and decreasing overall performance.

The best thing you can do is use the proper sized and number of guides. That will give you all that that particular rod can give.

..............

It seems that the idea is to have a rod that will shoot the line easier than a conventionally built fly rod. Our hobby is just brimming with tradition, this idea expands the conventional thoughts about a fly rod. Could be fun... ?

Once you have the proper sized and correct number of guides for optimum performance, how can changing that possibly increase performance in any way? Optimum is optimum.

When you say "larger guides" you might want to specify "larger than what?" The key is to use the smallest and fewest guides that will easily pass your line and any required connections plus provide adequate stress distribution for the rod. Better than that you cannot do.

.............

Check this out.... a bit different, but an interesting concept! I can send you a link for a site, I wont post it publicly because I dont want to do anything improper here. Email me or PM me, I will send you a link.

Jess



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2012 09:33PM by Jesse Shipe.

Jesse, please send me the link, I am an interested skeptic!

There was that guy a few years ago putting up to 17 guides on a 9 foot rod. He claimed it shot the line better.

I did build a couple of 9 foot rods with 11 guides and they are excellent.

I don't have the resources to fully test the idea, and it sounds goofy, but I'd be willing to fish the rod if someone gave it to me.

Drew

Several years ago--perhaps in the 70s or 80s, an article appeared in a well-known fly fishing magazine where they touted the use of oversized snake guides. As I recall some commercial rod manufacturers adopted this idea. I tried this idea and found I could not cast any farther with over sized guides than I could with "normal" sized guides. Adding extra weight on the tip section of a rod will affect performance. The best way you can determine this is by taping the guides on a rod you are building and then go and test cast it 50 times measuring the distance for each cast. You can then determine a mean, a standard deviation, and relative standard deviation from the mean. You can then retape new guides on the rod minimizing the size and number and repeating the test casting. Once you have all of your data, you can determine if there is any statistical difference between the means using statistical table and standard test that you can find in any elementary statistics text.

I think you will find the larger guides do not give you any additional distance nor will it make the guides cast more smoothly. Have fun and then report back to us.

Mike Blomme

Have been experimenting lately with # and size of guides on a #10 fly rod.

Used 9 or 10 guides and #5-#3 on a 10wt 9' fly rod.

Can see no difference in casting. Settled on 9 guides and a size 4 for a #10 fly rod.

But don't agree with extra large guides on a fly rod. Knots pass too easily and will get caught in tip section. Much prefer to be able to reach knot/tangle closer to the stripper.

Interesting that Sage uses "extra-large" guides on their Xi2 - Xi3 but uses much smaller guides on their TCR-TCX "high performance"
rods. Makes no sense to me.
Herb

Adding weight to any rod reduces the rod tip velocity.
Larger guides can help shooting but only if the additional weight doesn't reduce rod recovery speed.
Shooting line requires higher tip speeds to increase loop velocity and reduce loop height.
If the rod tip is slowed by excessive guide weight the rod will respond slower increasing the loop height and increasing drag.
Try it if you must but don't talk yourself into believing it's better.

I guess I am more of the "show me" kind of guy, wish I had a sample of each style rod to try. That would be fun.

If the rod with "oversized" guides fishes or casts better, that could only be because the former rod actually had undersized guides.

The best all around performance will happen when you have the proper size and proper number of guides.

................

I have seen a few articles pertaining to larger guides and better shooting. If you search for it, you will find articles on it. I have never seen this in person though. The articles claim that larger guides reduce friction on fly rods because, unlike spinning rods, there is no weight to cast; just the line. I really would be interested to know if this is true, but I don't build enough fly rods to warrant testing the information. Interesting though.

David Dosser
Coshocton, OH

The weight is in the line. The rod could not possibly know the difference. weight is weight.

Again, when someone says "larger" or "oversized," larger or oversized than what?

............

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The weight is in the line. The rod could not
> possibly know the difference. weight is weight.
>
> Again, when someone says "larger" or "oversized,"
> larger or oversized than what?
>
> ............

It would make sense that more guides/more guides that are larger and heavier than a "standard" size would effectively cause a fly rod to be slower in action. The extra weight would affect the rebound action of the rod.

Does this make sense, or am I wrong about it? A lighter build would be faster than a heavier build. There is weight in the line, but the build affects recovery speed, thus affecting slow or fast accordingly. I think.... :)

Think of any rod - as a spring - Ty a weight to the tip and it slows it's recovery down
The more guides - the more thread- the more finish ---- the more weight
The slower it recovers
performance goes Down

Bill - willierods.com

The action would not change, but the speed would definitely be slower. The rod would react and recover more slowly.

Guides do not need to be any larger than whatever the right size happens to be.

................

Shooting line is no more than monofilament or maybe braided of some type. Why would a larger guide or more of them make the shooting line fly through the guides faster or farther? Think about it for a bit.Small diameter line doesn't go through a large running guide any faster than it does a smaller dia. guide unless it needs to be choked down like on a spinning rod.

Randolph Ruwe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Shooting line is no more than monofilament or
> maybe braided of some type. Why would a larger
> guide or more of them make the shooting line fly
> through the guides faster or farther? Think about
> it for a bit.Small diameter line doesn't go
> through a large running guide any faster than it
> does a smaller dia. guide unless it needs to be
> choked down like on a spinning rod.

These rods are for small water, not shooting huge distances. The braided and mono stuff is irrelevant. We are talking about 5 wt double tapered or weight forward line on small waters. I will send you a link.

Jess