.011 inch. Shakespeare Red Cast 8lb test.

Moving to a smaller diameter and/or more supple line would yield a little more distance.

...............

I'd like to add one thing to the test results I posted earlier - I also tested a good Cone of Flight System at that same time. I notice from my notes that I averaged 136 feet with that old, supposedly antiquated system. That's an advantage of just under 3% for the other systems over the COF. Hardly noticeable, really.

The thing is, I didn't stop using the COF because it didn't cast well. It does. I abandoned it long ago due to other systems being lighter and better balanced. They're just more pleasant to cast and fish with. So again, it's not just about how far something will cast. The main advantage of all these newer systems is the smaller guides being used on the top half of the rod. Getting rid of that weight makes a huge difference in how the rod handles and feels.

.................

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...The thing is, I didn't stop using the COF because
> it didn't cast well. It does. I abandoned it long
> ago due to other systems being lighter and better
> balanced. They're just more pleasant to cast and
> fish with. So again, it's not just about how far
> something will cast. The main advantage of all
> these newer systems is the smaller guides being
> used on the top half of the rod. Getting rid of
> that weight makes a huge difference in how the rod
> handles and feels.
>
> .................

Exactly. The fact that I can stock fewer guide sizes is a huge plus as well.

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

Tom,
thanks a lot for sharing your much appreciated insights.
now, I have a whole forum of French rod builders interested in that, so please allow me to ask a couple more questions.

if I understood your point correctly, you say that a microwave rig compares with another reasonably efficient guide system in such a way that the difference is negligible. and at least for a specific setting, you've got empirical data to back you point.
I'm quite willing to believe these results, but in my experience it is very seldom that one finds a law robust enough to apply to a whole range of different conditions. I'm not a physicist, but the pictures they use to sell the microwave tell me that interaction between a microwave and the line (ie friction) must be much higher that it is between the line and a NGC reduction. so I wonder: is friction always negligible? I can imagine two scenarios where the answer is not obvious: 1. very high speed and thick line, as in surfcasting, or 2. on the contrary UL spinning with very light lures.

you seem to claim that in either microwave performs on par with other reasonably efficient guide systems. I guess that will be also my default belief, but I still would like to know if someone tested that.

PS. I hope it's clear that I just want to know what grounds we have for our beliefs.

_______________________________________________
If I'm not going to catch anything, then I'd rather not catch anything on flies.

Prostaff Rodhouse
[www.rodhouse.fr]

I think that maybe instead of relying on technology to increase my casting distance i would be better off practicing my casting style.
Probably something we can all do.Some days you would think i had been practicing casting into trees.I know that if i spent 30 mins
a day practicing in a month i would be so much better.


cheers

Ray Balmforth
Figtree
NSW
Australia

Laurent,

Friction comes in many forms. You have some line to guide friction, and you have friction between the line and the air it's passing through. In fact, the friction between the line and the air will be far greater than the friction between the line and the guides. Controlling the line early helps reduce the frontal drag of the line that occurs when you are trying to drag otherwise wildly oscillating coils through the air. The net result is greater distance, even though it may not be by an earth shattering amount.

The Microwave system certainly isn't going to rob you of any distance, if that's what you're leaning towards. And I think this will hold true in a wide variety of situations. Sure, there will be extremes where the particular size butt guide might not be optimum, but for a large portion of the general market the size offered is just fine. I think in most cases the worst it will do is still on par with about anything else out there.

Of course you don't have to rely on my tests, nor anyone else's - get a set and spend a couple hours casting. It'll be fun and you'll then know first hand if it's for you or not.

.............

Tom has a good point. When a rod/guide combination results in the maximum distance Tom mentions, (in other words when you've got all you can get from the blank and the components) you are usually fishing with a well balanced, light-in-the-top-half package that is noticeably quiet and smooth on the cast. Rods like that are far more enjoyable and EASY to fish with less fatigue in a day's fishing. So the question is: if you build to maximize distance, which will almost always be a quiet, smooth casting final layout, are you also making the rod more pleasurable to fish even if you don't make a single LONG cast all day? Of course, you need to achieve all of that with an eye toward static load for power but generally speaking a rod built for distance is well constructed AND turns out to be effortless on shorter casts. It's also light, easy to handle, sensitive and powerful...all from trying to maximize casting distance through better line control and less intrusion on the original action of the blank.

I know we're headed off the original path here, but Tom started it! ;)

Tom: well, that's a truly enlightening answer, thank you very much sir!

Ray: I'm more a fly freak myself, and what you say is SO true for fly casting.

Jim: in surfcasting and fly fishing rods, what you say is not totally accurate, since all out distance rigs are usually quite uneasy to handle. some can, but most can't. but I agree that everyone is looking for efficiency, and in most case a better rod is just a better rod.

_______________________________________________
If I'm not going to catch anything, then I'd rather not catch anything on flies.

Prostaff Rodhouse
[www.rodhouse.fr]

I knew I was sticking my neck out on surf rods with power being a major factor in guide placement. Wasn't so sure about flyrods. Still, many (savvy) surf rod guys are paying far more attention to NGC type builds and then modifying them for power as the last step. I wasn't really referring to the 5 guide 12 footers, more to the smaller lighter runners and faster reduction trains many are going to.

Down here in Florida we see a significant amount of surf rods and jetty rods built on surf blanks. Many still like and use the old style of less guides and large rings, but a very significant amount have switched over to other methods with smaller lighter running guides. The Sebastian Inlet and Ponce Inlet jetties are prime locations to see these in action where many casters reach well over 100 yards a cast with some of the better setups breaking 120-130yard marks with much less effort than you would think. Yes I am talking about nearing 350-400 foot casts with 9 and 10 foot rods. This actually blows away the results from the old style surf setups as both are seen at the jetties. Most of these anglers cast these distances with very good accuracy and often that extra 30-50 feet [in some cases] can be the difference between catching fish or having a long day at the jetty since the fish in both areas tend to school up dead center in the deepest part of the channel. Casting technique and style of course does play a very large role in this as well of course, but I have to agree with Jim here as I have seen it first hand.

Fly rods, however are a whole separate discussion.

I agree with you Ray my customers want the latest ill bring a kr and mw to the next meet and you can play with them all you like.

New setups and the marketing hype that comes with them do have a value be it real or percieved and more often its the percieved part. Lets face it most of my customers expect me to be up on the latest developments in the industry thats why they buy custom and not shop. I have been away for 2 weeks and in that time mudhole released these new sets of mw's two of my 8 orders for the month have gone from kr tsic to mw just because they saw the mh vid. It really comes down to being the first kid on the block to have a new bike. I hope the guide manufacturers release a new concept every month because i know ill sell more rods that way.

My customers will continue buying from me as long as i keep up with the latest trends its a promise i find them very similar to golfers who change clubs when thier swing goes off and i'm always here to help them get the toys. The idea of practicing the casting technique would never in a million years come into play, arrogance maybe ignorance probably. Either way happy days.

Cheers
Mark
Old Bar NSW
Australia

Billy

At last some one made it easy to understand!!!!!!! thank you sir . I think Tom to good ,he covers every thing so well, some time I get lost,but I will trust his knowledge of rod building. He sure has made my journey into the art of rod building easy, you to are one I look to for help, Thank you both for all you have given to the Art of Rod Building.

Richard Curry