Rod blank American Tackle AXLB70H (30-50lb line test / 1 - 6oz lure); rear grip hypalon 10.5"; reel seat American Tackle 20 graphite/aluminum; fore grip triangular moose skin; 30mm ring lock guide @ 19.5" from spool face Thunnis 6000 CI4); American Tackle microwave guide @33" from spool face; supplied 6mm ring lock guide at 46" from spool face; 4 supplied ring lock micro guides spaced unevenly to the tiptop (7.5, 5, 4.5, 3 inches from face of the 6mm guide). This is the spacing I came up with after several static tests and lawn casting. It's possible that it could be improved upon with more "live" experience.

Fishing conditions: Fast outgoing tide over submerged rock jetty at wide river mouth emptying into Chesapeake Bay; small breaking fish on the surface chasing bay anchovies / silverside minnows & peanut bunker (with lots of gulls dive bombing).

Fishing technique: 1.5-2.5 oz jigs (jig&pig / jig with soft plastic trailers); drift (under light power) as much as possible parallel to and down stream of the breaking fish dropping the jigs into the calmer water below the roil up against the rocks (where larger fish hang out looking for an easy meal). I fish this because the normal method for charter captains is to troll parallel to the rocks - which can be tricky (ie: downright dangerous) and inefficient as the boat gets one pass in the strike zone then has to make a large looping 360 degree turn to repeat the maneuver as several boats tend to line up for a pass.



Assessment: I did a comparison against what was my favorite rod for this technique. I got (on average) 15 yards more distance using the microwave set up. This may not sound like much but when dealing with turbulent current and large rocks it made a huge difference in "pucker factor". Yes, we out caught the trolling charter boats (on larger fish - to 26") by better than a 2-1 margin - and they out caught us on 12-14" throwbacks.

Wish list: I hope American Tackle comes up with a 30mm MW for use on surf rods.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2012 12:42PM by Ken Preston.

So the test was made against different rods, not the same rod tried twice, each time with a different guide set up? How do you know the difference was in the guides, not the rod itself? Not trying to rain on anbody's parade, just not sure this is a fair comparison. Forty five feet is a significant difference if it came from the guides alone. Where these two rods built on the same rod blank model?

I am doing a gathering on October 6th in Staten Island, and I will have teh same exact blank wrapped with th eMW set up, and a KR concept. One of hte guys has a 60 frame per second camera. WE'll see first hand if there are any differences. Blank is a Bushido MB 8-15 and will be cast with a 5/8oz casting plug.

Test was made against the same rod blank - one wrapped "normal" (27x) the other with the microwave (as measured). Sorry I forgot to note that my previously favorite rod was on the same blank; same handle; same reel seat; same fore grip - only difference was using the microwave guide -- AND the included small micro guides - which I admit could have also had an impact on distance = keeping the line down close to the blank.

Looking forward to Billy's testing



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2012 01:30PM by Ken Preston.

Rather than using a camera, I'd suggest a long tape measure. That will provide the practical results. What something looks like and how far the lure goes are often two different things.

I have some data to dig back up but before I post it I'm going to redo the test over the next few minutes, just to make sure.

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Still lots of variables - NGC; KR guides; micros vs the higher frame ring locks I used on the first rod could have an impact. Just thought I'd put up some "in use" results. Clearly we didn't drag a tape measure across the running tide - that's a JC trick I have yet to learn along with the loaves & fishes gig. Then there's the line that was used 40lb Power Pro that's been fished a few times and is limper than most mono lines at that break strength. What I will do is ask a friend of mine (charter boat captain) to help out with a lawn cast comparison on Monday / Tuesday when he comes to pick up some other rods I've got ready for him.

Ken,

Glad you mentioned the "lawn cast" thing. That's the only way I can accurately measure distance thus the casting lane next to my building. Never tried any casting distance tests on the water.

Now, I wasn't going to do this, but...

Before I elaborate I’ll post the following data. Keep in mind that although everything else was verbatim, the fact that a human element is involved means that such a test is not 100% controlled. There is a variable involved, although it is reduced somewhat by the number of casts made (35 each). Both guide set ups were tried on the exact same blank. Handle was fixed.

I left the Minima running guides in place so as not to involve the slight additional weight of ceramic running guides. The only replacements/changes to the Microwave set up involved the first three guides, where one transition guide was swapped for another running guide to allow for the quicker choke of the MW system. All guides were respaced as required to obtain the straightest possible line path. Total number of guides was the same. This particular MW guide was obtained from Swampland just after they were introduced.

I sell advertising to American Tackle, Fuji (Angler’s Resources) and Pacific Bay. There is no reason for me to favor one over the other. I don't sell guides. Therefore what I offer here is as objective as I can make it.

Blank - St. Croix 66MLF SCIV
Reel - Quantum Kinetic 20
Line - Shakespeare Red Cast 8lb test
Casting Weight - 3/8ounce BPS hard rubber plug
No appreciable wind.

New Guide Concept 27X (PB Minima Guides) 25H - 12H - 8H - 4L - 4L - 4L - 4L - 4L - Tiptop (4).

Microwave MW30/8 - 12H - 4L - 4L - 4L - 4L - 4L - 4L- Tiptop (4).

Best 5 casts (rounded down to nearest foot):
NGC (27X): 145ft, 144ft, 143ft, 141ft, 141ft.
MW: 145ft, 143ft, 143ft, 142ft, 141ft.

Average all 35 casts (rounded down to nearest foot):
NGC (27X): 140ft.
MW: 140ft.

10 lb test - deduct 6 feet from the above averages and you have the results for both systems with that line.

These were from my original tests done awhile back. I just went outside a bit ago and quickly knocked out 10 casts with both systems again, just to confirm my earlier notes. The average for both was the same as previously noted.

So, this is why I admonish folks to do their own “tests.” One guy finds a huge difference on the side of the newer system. One finds the new system to reduce distance. Another, like myself, can’t find any practical difference between the two.

What I can say, is that the Microwave system will certainly not cost you any distance. At least within the confines of the light/medium lines I used. But the only way you’re going to know whether or not it offers you any improvement, is to try it for yourself with the blank, reel and line you intend to use, along with your current favored guide set up system.

The fact is, there is a limit to how far you can cast a given amount of weight on any given rod blank. Once the guide system is more than adequate, no more gains will be made in the distance department.

Finally, and as more of a side note, after watching many folks cast for distance, I have come to the conclusion that when trying to obtain the greatest distance, too many fisherman “over-cast” the rod. They push too hard instead of allowing the rod to do the work. This actually robs them of distance. A properly set up and loaded (casting weight-wise) rod is a joy to cast, obtaining maximum distance with no herculian effort from the fisherman required.

...............

Bill Stevens supplied a lot of this same type information when CastAway first unveiled the guide 2 years ago. There were even similar photos, etc.

Do a search. You will find much. All of it is still on the board and in the photo pages.

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For me it's not about distance, I already know that it's not going to be at much of a difference. I like being able to use the smaller guides, and I like how close I can put the stripper and how tight the line goes on teh spool when using light lures.

FWIW, all this small stripper guide stuff is nothing new for me. Since 2005/6 my personal rods are 8' spinning rods (GUSA 82L & 82M) with a Fuji TATSG 12 & 16 strippers going to size a 6 and 2.5 running guides. With that long blank I was able to put that small stripper far away. On 7' rods, I could not do that and had to use a larger guide to get the rod to perform the way I wanted it to.

Ken,

Very interesting result, thanks for posting and sharing. I'm glad to hear the design worked out for you.

Joe

So the fifteen yard increase is an on the water guesstimate? Not an actual measurement?

Correct - today's "rod-to-rod" comparison was on the water - sunrise, fishing in light / variable winds (3-5) and wave 1-2 ft. so there wasn't a lot of boat movement to contend with. There was a 'standing wave' at the breaker (rip) and that is what I was using as a marker to measure one against the other. I know I was over the 15 yard increase on one cast ('cause I lost the jig in the rocks) and I know I was way under 15 when the bail snapped shut and the jig landed 10 feet away -- such things happen when the fish are breaking and the birds are diving. So, NO - this was not a controlled, scientific experiment but I had a great time with my new toy.

NOTE: The American Tackle microwave guide is 20mm / 6mm and stands close to 40mm off the surface of the blank. I don't know if this would make a difference - I believe Tom's casting lane test results. I do not have one of the original Castaway 30mm microwave guides but would like to set up a surf rod with one even though I use a conventional reel (Avet) for surf use.

NOTE #2 - Like Billy I've been using smaller guides on my personal rods for years. I started using single foot fly guides and small fly stripper guides on spinning and conventional bass rods around 2006/7. Basically I convinced myself that lighter weight from guides plus keeping the line close to the surface of the blank and therefore flex of the blank just "worked better" for me.

Check with swampland, they may still have some of the 30/8 and 7 ring microwave sets left. Good shipping prices too.

Not sure how many of the new builders feel but i get a bit confused by all of the new systems that are being introduced.I thought i was going allright
when i saw the 27x method and then there was the KR concept and now there is the micro wave.So is there a great difference between them all ?

How can a new builder get his or her head around all of this. Do we rely on companies blurb about what their product can do for us.

So how much further can the latest guide system go from the previous one is it a huge distance or is it a miniscule amount.Do i feel better about
having the latest product or is it a placebo to make me feel like i am out casting the last greatest thing.

Now i am sure if i rock up to the local and have a micro wave guide system it will generate plenty of interest especially here in Aus.But will it catch
me more fish or will it catch more customers (have 2 in the pipe line but they dont know about microwave yet ) but it seems every one wants to be
on the latest thing no matter if its better or not.

So i guess i rely on people like Tom Kirkman who will spend a bit of time to evaluate things and get on the lawn and do the dirty work so to speak
to provide us with an informed opinion with out being biased towards a product or paid to present a view.

I just want to build rods that are going to work to the best of their ability and not be caught up in a promotional war between different systems.

Is it possible to have everyone to build up a rod using the same blank have the same reel and line and casting weight and show up at the same
location and have a cast off. Results to be posted.

cheers

Ray Balmforth
Figtree
NSW
Australia

As I said earlier, a given rod blank will only cast a given weight so far. At some point, any guide system that is more than adequate is going to max out, right alongside other systems that are also more than adequate. You can't keep getting more and more distance by moving or changing guides. There is a limit to how far any blank will cast some amount of weight.

I think the best thing builders can do is try different systems and then utilize the one that appeals to them the most. It might come down to cost, it might come down to what their customers will buy, it might come down how easy they consider it to set up. But the only way to find out is to try as many as you've got time for.

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Fantastic thread, extremely interesting!!
Tom, do you think you would have equivalent results on heavy rods ? I agree that on can max out a casting system, but it's far easier on a light rod than on heavier builds. After all, competitive distance casting shows that you can build 13' surf rods that very few casters -- if any -- can max. In such configurations a microwave may make a difference.
Is anyone aware of published test results on heavy rigs ?

_______________________________________________
If I'm not going to catch anything, then I'd rather not catch anything on flies.

Prostaff Rodhouse
[www.rodhouse.fr]

Ray - I don't payattention to any specific guide layout theory. I read them, get the point, and then I go and test cast until I'm happy with whatever set up I want to use. It's really that easy. With the MW, I had a hard time setting the strip & trans guide up, so I went to Amtak's site and used their spacing. 11" apart worked better than what I was doing. Problem solved. PEople make things much more difficult than they have to be, primarily because they are ng to understand how to do something, instead of why. If you know why, the rest should be really easy, just dont' get overwhelmed by all the numbers and misc @#$%&.

Laurent,

At some point you're throwing enough weight that muscle power becomes a factor, particularly when you hang that weight out on a 10 to 12 foot (or more) stick. But even then, you still rely on the rod blank to store and release energy. Properly performed, a well executed cast on the right rod will net you more distance than if you just hung the same weight on something like a non-flexing stiff steel rod and cast it from there.

My point about the guide systems is going to be valid on any cast, however. If you move from a very bad guide system to a very good one, you'll notice a measurable difference. But once you reach a certain point with any good system, there just isn't going to be much difference in casting distance between any of them. We should remember that casting distance alone isn't the only thing a good guide system does for us. If you can reduce swing weight, improve balance, etc., then you have discovered the other equally important aspects of a good guide system. Since we don't always cast for maximum distance anyway, some of these other aspects may prove to be even more valuable than distance itself.

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Tom I 10000% agree with the last paragraph. The problem is from a markettign perspective you need something you can "prove" to people. What's funny is nobody really "proves" anything, they make claims and are very good with words to imply a lot of things without atually saying it. People "need" to hear how far a rod casts in order to want to try it. An easy fix...because if they truly wanted to cast furhter they'd learn how to cast better, besides the point.

Tom do you know what the actual diameter of the 8 pound test you used was? Also what would happen if you dropped down to 6 pound test in the same brand?