Thanks drew and Duane.

Duane, do you actually do all that? I can't imagine having to do that for every rod and every coat of epoxy, especially for a tiger wrap or something.

Hi Steve,
Lot of good advice. You need to find something that works for you and keep at until you get it how you what. There was a post not long back about a lady who stacks it one then heats with a big torch and flame and then wicks off the excess. She gets mirror smooth finish and does it for a living. Won't work for everyone. Some guys get good results with putting it on thick, some thin.
I'm a put it on quickly and fairly thick, brush lightly length ways, check for coverage then about 30 seconds of heat from a small gas torch. Then the most important one - LEAVE IT ALONE.
Keep at it, you'll get there.
Another thing, if you decide to change the way your doing things do it in a structured manner and only change one thing at a time. You can get yourself a piece of scrap blank and put however many wraps you want, use the same thread colour. Number your wraps and make a list of the changes and apply one to each number. You can do your first one as close as you can to the way you do things now. You can do one with thin coats, one with thick and one really thick. Then you can brush one lightly lengthways, then use a torch or similar on another. When everything is dry you can compare and see what works for you. When you come to doing it on a rod you have only one thing to remember, the amount you put on will vary the closer you get to the tip and you don't need a lot on small guides at the tip before you get a football.
Good luck.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2012 07:33AM by Col Chaseling.

Thanks col.

Duane, I agree. It takes me about 30 seconds to sufficiently coat a 10" Dec Wrap, andother 30 to brush lengthwise, and 15 seconds of heat which is neccesary.

Steve,
Pretty simple.
I use my power wrapper when applying finish. I apply finish at 0- 50 rpm or so.
I will load up the brush, start at the handle, and apply finish up the rod, butt wrap and then each of the guides. I make sure that I have enough finish applied to fully coat all parts of the wrap and guide wraps.
When I get to the tip, I then go back to the butt of the rod, and using a very bright light and a magnifying head band, go over each section of every wrap and check for any issues.
Much of the time, no action is needed. If there is too much finish or any other type problem , I will use a bit of gentle heat to let the finish flow and even out. If there happens to be a bit much finish, I will stop the rod, let the bulge develop on the bottom and wick it off.
I continue this to the tip of the rod and then set the wrapper to the drying speed if only doing one rod, or transfer it to the drum dryer if doing more than one rod in the batch that day.

The initial finish application typically takes something under 5 minutes with another few minutes on the follow up of the rod.

As others have said, once you have initially applied the finish - don't do any brushing or other things to disturb the finish.

About 90% of the rods are finished with one coat. Once in a while, there might still be an issue on a guide that might need a 2nd coat.

Good luck
Roger

I primarily build fly rods, but do add a decorative butt wrap. When I started, many butt wraps had to be sanded as the results looked like ocean waves. I would heat, let stand and take off the drips… an ugly mess.

Bill Falconer YouTube videos for me on track, but not until I went to minimum amounts and long horizontal strokes did results change over night.

When I started mixing in a shot glass and using a metal spatula to mix, I did get better results. I think the shot glass and spatula as Drew suggested is the best way mix small amounts of finish, as there are no ridges in the cup and the sides of the glass are easily mixed with the metal spatula.

Another point is syringes are not the most accurate method to measure small amounts of epoxy, weight is. Contact the manufacturer to get weight ratios between catalyst and resin. Using a 3 place (0.000) digital scale, add catalyst then resin adjusted to catalyst weight.

Working with weight, I ended up making smaller batches, good for costs and better for results. Results are better since you can accurately make small batches and thereby add smaller amounts to the guides. I think my best results are done with 2 coats using Gen 4 low build or CTS Crystal Coat. I do prefer a low build product as I’m happy to do another coat as my best results are done with thin applications.

First coats objective to just cover the threads, if you have a smooth coat, you’ve added to much. The second coat is about the same amount, but now the finish is smooth, no globs or swells.

Regards,

Mike

Note the epoxy in your mix cup - it'll be level every time.

The particular brand of epoxy is of no concern - they will all level equally well. The trick is to "do less." Don't poke and prod it to make it level - it will level on its own if you will only leave it alone. For a few tips read this-

[www.rodbuilding.org]

............

Lighter coats.

3 light coats. just enough to wet the thing.. you can just spend allot of time wiping off to much...

push less further... be stingy.. 3 as light as you can coats..

My kid is better Than me... it's hard lol she can paint it on thin that's her job.

For many years, I use the 1+ finish coat for the rods.

I use flex coat and I apply a well mixed coat of finish.

I spin the rod fast when applying finish. My first goal is to have sufficient finish on all spots needing finish quickly. If there is a bit much, I simply wiick it off spinning rod with a brush.

Then, I apply gentle heat, starting from one end of the rod moving up to the other end. I am always checing for areas of too much finish or too little finish. If too much, I wick it off with a brush. If too little I just add a touch more finish with the brush.

After about 10 minutes of rotation, I go back over the rod again, touching up any thin spots by adding finish or wicking off any excess finish.

A few minutes later after going the full length of the rod, I go over it again - checking for perfection. If perfect - I am done and leave the rod alone for an overnight drying session.

Assuming that the rod checks out the following morning, I am ready to ship the rod the following afternoon. Thus, I almost never have to resort to a 2nd length drying cycle. i.e. I do the finish application and touch up - all in the initial application of finish and use only a single drying cycle.

When - in a production mode - eliminating drying cycles - really improves weekly product flow.

Best wishes.

Biggest factors for me are HEAT and DRYER SPEED.

When drying the rod in a cooler house I always place a lamp over my decal as it cured to ensure that area is a bit warmer and it levels out the best.

Second and biggest factor thats most overlooked is the speed of your rod dryer! I started out with something like 20ish rpm dryer and had problems getting that glass smooth finish. Cut the rpms in half down to like 10rpm and that made the entire rod level evenly. If anything try this adjustment above all others.

Bruce,

Great points, I’m a basement builder and winter temps mid to low 60’s. I use low build products for the best results, part of this response maybe viscosity related to temperature.

As to speed, I build mostly fly rods (small diameter 9 mm butt 2mm tip section. Even with the small diameter I use 5rpm drying motors. The caveat, is that using Gen 4 low build with minimal epoxy per coat.

For me in my system, minimal epoxy per coat is the key for proper epoxy outcomes.

I have tried Bill Falconer method of adding excess, heating lightly, let stand, remove the sags, restart turning ,small amount of heat.

This does work beautifully for Bill and I can make it work for me. But for my consistency in outcomes, very light coats gives me the outcome I want.

Using many small single foot guides, 2 very light coats, which also work for all guides. The decal space takes 2 coats of very light epoxy, to get a smooth surface, add decal, then 2 more light coats.

I build my 4 piece fly rods in 2 sections, the top 3 and then the butt section. This method allows for rapid finish application. I built a 4 place drier setup designed for this purpose.

Maybe not all methods work under all conditions, but forums like this allow use to explore various options.

Smooth light epoxy finishes to all

Mike





I

Just did one over the decal area and the area between the seat and butt knob. Mixed it, applied it, blew through a straw on it, passed the side of a butane lighter flame along it, let it turn. Perfect. No drips, no heat lamp, no tent, no alcohol torch, no problem. Room temp about 67. Like Tom said.

I think what many may be missing here is that there are things you can do to screw it up, to make Tom's suggestion of "leave it alone" not work as intended. I think the biggest ones are excessive heat and too much epoxy. If you apply too much epoxy or use too much heat, leaving it alone may not work because you have already compromised the process.

????????

I learned the hard way, that Tom is absolutely right. I caused myself more problems trying to put on perfectly level and thin coats, and then playing with it trying to get it perfect, than I ever have by just putting it on, and letting it do it's thing.

And personally, I use high build, either Flex Coat with Ultra V, or the Gen 4, and I put it on heavy. I purposefully want it to sag as the rod sits guides up, motionless in my wrapper. At first it only takes a couple of minutes before it starts to sag. I let it sag a bit more, maybe two minutes, and then use a spatula, or the brush I used to apply the finish, to wick off the sagged areas. I then rotate the rod 180 degrees, and let it sit motionless, allowing it to sag again. After about 5 minutes or so I'll notice it starting to sag. Let it sit a bit longer, and repeat the process of wicking off the sagging finish. After two more 180 degree rotations, I no longer have any sagging, and I either switch to the drying motor on my wrapper, or I put the rod in a stand alone dryer that I made when I first started building.

Applying finish used to be one of the things I had trouble with. Now it's one of the fun parts of building a rod.

I use the same process when applying a bed of finish to accept a decal, On a longer area of finish like that, you can just wick off just in the areas that need it.

And I realize this is an old thread, but sorry to the guys that say just apply more finish over wavy finish and it will fix it. It won't fix it. You need to level it with light sanding. The sanding will disappear once you apply another layer of finish.

Seriously, .... if you're having trouble as a newby getting nice finish. Give the procedure I outlined a try. on a rod you can practice doing wraps on. It might work as well for you, as it does for me.

There is a lot of good technical advice in this thread that doesn’t need repeating. I’ll cover something else. Most things that can be a little difficult or tedious seem to go much better with the combination of a good process and mental approach. I grew up watching an old gunsmithing neighbor perform complex handwork in a very calm and easy manner. Jobs varied a lot but he was still redundant in how he kept his bench and worked. To turn a hardwood blank into a smoothly shaped gunstock required knowing how to do it and then being willing to just get started. He told me that if you fret too much over it, you can’t do it. I’ve observed this same demeanor with artisans from glass blowers to painters

Finishing a rod is one of those activities in which preparation and mentally reviewing the process sets one up for success. Lay everything out neatly and in the order of use. Make sure the rod is concentric as it turns. Have a good hand rest that moves easily. Warm bottles do help and the sealing caps are a must for me. Then, it’s just a matter of calmly getting to it with a balance of focus and relaxed confidence. Being tentative or stressed makes it way harder to just let rotation and gravity smoothly do their job. Finishing a rod has to be way easier than shaping figured walnut.

I’m adding something that I initially forgot: It helps a lot in your process to be comfortably setup to reach the rod with steadiness. It’s also important to have lighting that really lets you see the ends you are cutting and how you are metering the epoxy application across the finished area.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2024 12:53AM by Kendall Cikanek.

Kendal,

Those are great points that not often discussed.

If I might add one point to helping the final outcome of the rod. Never rush, never be in a hurry, the clean the bench, layout of the materials, putting the rod on the lathe, square the wraps, use the sticky side of blue tape to catch any fuzzies, make sure your mixing cup is clean, your spatula is clean. Turn on some relaxing music and enjoy the process.

Mike

Drew.
I like the aluminum can advise.
I have always put foil on top of vegi can.

Mike Hubbert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Another point is syringes are not the most
> accurate method to measure small amounts of epoxy,
> weight is. Contact the manufacturer to get weight
> ratios between catalyst and resin. Using a 3
> place (0.000) digital scale, add catalyst then
> resin adjusted to catalyst weight.
>

Hi would you mind sharing the weight ratios for gen 4? Thank you

The way my mind works, weight is not the right option. I used to do some carbon fiber grips where the epoxy used was mixed by weight ratio, and I had to be VERY careful not to screw it up. Syringes work just fine with me, just did a small job where I measured just a fraction of the normal volume and it worked just fine. Without getting out the calculator and scale. Weight might work for some, but for me, it's syringes all the way.

Rod wrapping epoxies have been formulated to be measured and mixed by volume. This greatly simplifies the process and does not require the purchase of any special equipment such as a scale. I suppose you could call a pair of syringes special equipment, but they're terribly inexpensive and can be used over and over.

..........