Billy V. introduced me to the TLDBSG guides years ago and I have been using them for micro guide surf rods ever since. It is great to see major vendors now carrying the series and Fuji adding the KR series guides with high frames and small rings, but...we still have the same problem: Unless you are building a rod with a tube of 6.5 or smaller, you will not find a matching top. Most surf rods have tops larger than a 6.5 tube. I know this is not a new problem, but larger rods built with size 5 top guides look ridiculous with an 8 ring, and the heights of the rings don't match up. Fuji...please give us tops to match the micro guides in tube sizes suitable for surf rods.

And no, I am not willing to split a tube nor wrap another guide in place of a top.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2012 01:34AM by Scott Lewis.

This previous post from Jim Ising helps slightly, but the mention of the new FC tops really doesn't help because they only come in tubes up to 6.5:

"I don't have an official answer from Fuji, but the idea that tops "match" guides seems contrary the fact that for some guide frames we offer and list up to five different top designs as "recommended". Yes, some frames seem to point to a particular top, but there is tremendous latitude in the final choice. By the time you factor design, ring size and tube size, height must be "averaged" or we would need 3 or 4 heights (for various guide frames) for every tube size, for every ring size. Makes my head hurt to think about it. Line flow at the tip is pretty well smoothed out and the top doesn't need to "control" line to a downstream guide. I think Tom's right, not a "practical" issue. The real sticking point has been micro rings with larger tubes. Going from a 4 runner to a 6 top because tube size forced it has been a pain, but it's getting better. Fuji has a new FC top coming that should make things easier."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2012 01:32AM by Scott Lewis.

The problem I found is that the heights of the guides relative to the corresponding tops are still coordinated based on the old cone of flight system. I usually end up using a top with a ring one size larger and it doesn't look so bad.

John, on the rods that Sctt builds, he will go from a size 6 TLDB which sit at a 45 degree angle to the blank so they are lower than a regular size 6 - to a size 10-10 tip top because the surf rods come with larger tips and there is no tip top larger than an 8-9. It's goofy looking, and it is kind of counterprouctive to reduce teh weight of all the guides then still put a "heavy" tip on the rod - the worst place to have "excess" weight is at the tip.

FWIW< I have taken gides and bent them into a top and it works great, but it is a major PITA using a size 6 guide to do this. There is an article in Rodmaker mag from several years ago.

PS - if anyone needs Fuji TLDBSG size 6's I have had them in stock for 5 years.

Scott I have been saying this for years. You and I both do the same surf layouts with the LDB's. I have been using 9 tube 8 rings with some of mine but with the 10 size tip your stuck with a 10 rings. I said something to Donnie and Jim from Anglers at High Point about it. Small ring big tube tip tops. Not a hard concept to figure out. You would think the company that came up with a concept that uses the theory of getting the line down quick and use smaller guides, keep the rod tip light.. would make 10 and 11 tube with at least a 6 ring!! The bug is in their ear lets see if it gets translated to Fuji!!

For many years, the larger tip diameter rod blanks were typically surf models and thus required a large ring tiptop in order to pass shock leader knots. Now we've entered an era where there's also a need for the opposite.

..............

Hi Scott,
Couldn't agree more. There's a need for larger tube sizes with small rings for use on more than just beach rods. I'm in the process of building a new beach rod with size 4 micros and my biggest concern is not being able to get a size 4 tip with a big enough tube to fit the blank. At least it's a light rod that hasn't got a big tip diameter. Hopefully a lot of guide manufacturers will take note as this has been a problem for some time. I've had to build a number of rods with larger tips than the running guides. Even with size 6 running guides it's often hard to find a tip with a big enough tube diameter.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2012 12:59AM by Col Chaseling.

John;
I beg to differ with you on this comment
“You would think the company that came up with a concept that uses the (theory of getting the line down quick) ”

That concept was introduced at the I.C.R.B.E in the first seminar on micro guides on a rod with a switchable handle setup that could be used as a spinning or bait casting rod.
With Pat Vanzant quickly grasping the concept, and putting it to use on many of his spinning rod setups ever since

Fuji is about 5 years behind on the learning curve.
Let’s hope it doesn’t take them or the other Manufactures another 5 years to grasp the need for smaller big tube guides for those who prefer them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2012 06:06AM by Steve Gardner.

Fuji's NGC was introduced around 1995 if I remember correctly. At worst I'd be off by a couple years one way or the other.

................

Tom;
It's their new-"Rapid Choke micro guide theory" concept, I was referring to. Could be wrong, but was pretty sure John was referring to it as well.

Their catch phrase is new, but the concept definitely debuted at the show some 5 years ago.
Fuji's last comment in the below paragraph simply documents what was being taught in that seminar.

TAKEN FROM FUJI'S SITE:
3) Smaller ring sizes in strippers and reduction train guides leads to better line control. Added control aids in moving the line down and near the blank earlier, effectively moving the choke point closer to the reel. Moving the choke point toward the reel eliminates the need for a forth reduction guide and instead requires an additional running guide. The addition of a single running guide improves sensitivity, power, recovery and casting distance since the line is flowing smoothly along the blank earlier in the cast. Fuji has named this process “Rapid Choke” and it has a notable impact on rod performance.
[anglersresource.net]

The Rapid Choke concept is not much different from the original NGC, with the exception that the smallest guides readily available in the U.S. in the mid-1990s was about a 6, perhaps a 5.

You'd have to go back to the literature the company published around that time to decide just how much different it really is. Similar, but different is about the best I can draw from it.

..............

Fuji's KR CONCEPT is intended to be an evolution of the NGC, not necessarily a micro build concept. It follows the original idea of lighter weight, better line control, increased sensitivity, power etc., Tom is correct, there are a lot of similarities yet all seek the same ultimate goal. You can think of Fuji as "5 years behind the learning curve", but IMO it would be better phrased to say "Fuji always chooses to conduct their own research, quantitatively substantiate their own data and develop their own products based on market trends that hold up under the scrutiny of consumers over time". I'm sure if any of us were investing millions of dollars in the research and development of new products we might feel the same way. And, for every advancement Fuji has gleaned from the grassroots level, they have introduced many more that were theirs alone that have driven the entire craft forward.

KR varies from accepted "micro theory" in a couple of ways. For example, Fuji doesn't recommend the use of any guide smaller than a 4, they could provide no hard data that smaller guides offered a measurable benefit. KR also recommends two reduction guides on a casting rod because they have strong data to show that line control is an issue even after line travels through the small ring on the line-guide at the reel. These and other "departures" seem to indicate that KR is not solely a micro theory, but rather a new and substantial reexamination of the most accepted rod building philosophy worldwide.

Still, none of this solves the problem of big tubes and small rings for tops. They have heard it from us again and again. We are waiting just like you.