I know this is redundant, but it truly depends on the person who uses the rod. I know I can tell the difference between guides with different ring and frame materials. Other people can't, or simply don't care. I had a customer who money didn't seem like it would be a concern, he was putting Stellas on the new rods. I asked him "why didn't you want to use the Titanium SIC guides? They are lighter, corrosion free, and super smooth". His answer, "can't see the difference. I'd rather put the money toward more rods". I was happy to oblige. What I would want personally, and what he wanted, 2 different things.

Regarding cost, here is an axiom I believe is true...There is nothing that someone can't make a little worse and sell a little cheaper.

On the subject of marketing, here is a precept that I know to be true...If you want to sell more double burgers put a triple burger on the menu.

Some folks want the lowest price, regardless of quality, some want the most expensive, regardless of price.
Between these extremes, most wise consumers will be looking for the point of diminishing returns.
However, just where those returns diminish will depend on the individual.

Roger pick the guides you or your customer can afford or wants and the rod will be good to go. Thats all you can do. They are all pretty damn good.

I am new to rod building and started wrapping my own rods because I was unhappy with the factory built rods and wanted the best-of-the-best components on my rods. I have used nothing but the Fuji titanium SiC guides on all my salmon and steelhead drift rods. While they are fairly expensive compared to other guides, they give me the confidence and ease-of-mind in knowing that I can trust that these guides won't fail me when I have that once-in-a-lifetime trophy salmon or steelhead on the end of my line. I have seen friends' rods wrapped with less expensive Alconite guides and the rings do fade over time and I have seen a couple of the guides on these rods pop off.

I know that this sounds weird, but probably the most important reason why I went with the Titanium SiC guides is because I love how they look on my rods. Not too flashy but not too subdued either. Just perfect! IMO, the all-black guides are not flashy enough and the stainless steel guides are too flashy. Are these titanium SiC guides overkill on a salmon or steelhead drift rod? Yes. Would other less expensive guides work just as well? Yes. However, as I have been telling my friends, my time on the water is very invaluable. Therefore I want to hold the best-of-the-best that I can afford. Maybe someday I will realize that I don't need titanium SiC. But for now these are the only guides that I like. They also give me the confidence so I can outfish the guy standing next to me.

Bruce,
You indicated in your post that you could tell the difference in ring and frame materials.

So, you are telling me that if you were blind folded and you were given 2 dozen rods, that you would be able to tell me what frame and what ring is on each rod after casting and retrieving each rod a dozen times?

Are you sure that you could do that?

You also state that you can tell the difference in ring and frame materials.

What do you sense in your hand, when you cast and or retrieve that allows you to have this wonderful gift that I am sure that very few other folks in the world enjoy.

Just wondering.

Roger

The last time I tried to walk on Water I Got My Feet WET

Bill - willierods.com

Bill Stevens,
You are correct on all accounts. I'll have to strain the brain a bit harder in future.

Bill Boettcher,
If I ever try that caper I get a lot more than my feet wet.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

All depends on if you build the rod to please yourself or your customer.
Pinching pennies on a custom build satisfies the builder.
If you try to please both you'll want the best for the task and price won't drive the decision.

Eugene Moore

It is unwise to equate the "expensive" guides with the "best" guides. They may be the lightest but the most fragile. They may be the most attractive but the quickest to corrode. It may be very difficult to match a damaged or lost guide. Form should follow function, but if your customer's favorite color is metallic pink you will have to use the (expensive) tutti-frutti guides completely unsuitable for the task.

I appreciate all of the comments.
I think that the comments all made sense and it was great to have the discussion.

Take care
Roger

This started out with the "Question of the day being, whats gained by spending X or 10X on guides for a rod?" The above responses pretty well cover the point that it is not just friction that determines an appropriate guide. Elements like durability, corrosion resistance, etc come into play.

Not to open a whole new thread, but the same question could be asked about every component of a rod, starting with the blank, then of course we could slide swiftly in to the merits of spending $$$$ on reels! LOL

Phil Erickson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This started out with the "Question of the day
> being, whats gained by spending X or 10X on guides
> for a rod?" The above responses pretty well
> cover the point that it is not just friction that
> determines an appropriate guide. Elements like
> durability, corrosion resistance, etc come into
> play.
>
> Not to open a whole new thread, but the same
> question could be asked about every component of a
> rod, starting with the blank, then of course we
> could slide swiftly in to the merits of spending
> $$$$ on reels! LOL

Or we could just build rods.... ;)

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

Being almost as old as dirt, I am no longer concerned with earning a living.
Therefore I choose to live in an area where there are few people and lots of fishing.
As I said before, when building for myself I use Fuji Alconite.
However, when I build for my kids, who like to fish but have real lives and only spend a few weekends a year on the water, I use Hardloy.
These guides are durable and will never groove or otherwise wear out.
They are far superior to the first ceramic guides that replaced the Nickle Silver and all steel guides that I can recall using a generation or so ago.
I am being frugal, not cheap, because I recognizing the point of diminishing returns!

if the cheap guides don't rust or corrode i'll use them. i've been useing fuji guides with the glow rings for 15 years (can't think of the guides code off hand)\
some rods i get in for repairs have these guides and are 30 years old and still going. but i also have had rods that i've custom built for clients and had them come back for tip replacements and i have noticed that these guides are rusting underneath the thread. other rods i've made never have any sign of rust.
i think lick other comments that have been made that it all depends on the individual clients use for there rods.
so in saying that in some custom rod builds the client and i choose to use a slightly more expensive guide that SUITS THERE NEEDS.,
so if you are comfortable in useing the cheaper guide i say go for it. it all comes down to needs but some times it's the wants you have to concider too.

I like "the question of the day"
I would rather pay alot of money for expensive guides than cheap guides that break,twist, rings fall out and rust .If I was to get a custom built rod that the guide broke sooner than later I wouldn't be happy with the rod builder.. The one thing I do make clients aware of, is that this rod building still proves that you get what you pay for.. I leave the cost upto the client by giving them alot of options...
Horses for courses, dont put expensive guides on a cheap blank and dont put cheap guides on an expensive blank... you will never see plastic drag washers in an expensive reel, but you will in a cheap one... its all relative.

Marketing has popularized the idea that there is a precise correlation between cost and value. IMHO utility trumps expense as a criterion for selecting rod building components. Unless, of course, the purpose of the rod [or any other purchase] is to prove something about the owner rather than to efficiently perform its stated task.

I have 100% faith that a Titanium Alloy frame with a Silicon Carbide ring is the best guide in the realm of "good, better, best". However, there is a distinction between "best", "best value" and "best choice". IMO, the latter sentence is the one to focus upon when building a rod.

roger wilson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bruce,
> You indicated in your post that you could tell the
> difference in ring and frame materials.
>
> So, you are telling me that if you were blind
> folded and you were given 2 dozen rods, that you
> would be able to tell me what frame and what ring
> is on each rod after casting and retrieving each
> rod a dozen times?
>
> Are you sure that you could do that?
>
> You also state that you can tell the difference in
> ring and frame materials.
>
> What do you sense in your hand, when you cast and
> or retrieve that allows you to have this wonderful
> gift that I am sure that very few other folks in
> the world enjoy.
>
> Just wondering.
>
> Roger


OMG, Roger. What are you doing? Wonderful post! I've been banging my head against the wall wondering what some guys are talking about. I hear guys say that they demand the lightest rod possible, the tiniest little micro guides, and that they can tell the difference between a rod that weighs in at 4 oz. or 3.85 oz., AFTER hanging a 12 oz,. reel on the thing. Whenever I hear that nonsense, my eyes roll up, the @#$%& alarm starts chirping and I get a nasty headache. Guides, same thing. I use my own and build rods for a few Louisiana Redfish guides, rods that get used over 200 days a year in brackish to saltwater. Those guys fish were fishing with Hardloy, and now I've got them using Alconite and Nanolite. But the next time I have a Fuji Hardloy fail on a big Redfish will be the first, and that's over 20 years. I can understand putting high end stuff when you're building a 750 buck tuna stick for some guy with a million dollar ride. That's the kind of value decision the builder is responsible for. But the rest of it? I guess you can convince yourself of anything if you try hard enough.

For a reality check, head down to Baja and pit your rod(s) with nano rhodium-diamond top-price guides against a pangero hand-lining with wiry mono wrapped around a coffee can with a spark plug for a sinker. Let me know how you make out.

As an old fart whose first fishing rod was made by TruTemper (or, True Temper, it was a long time ago) and was solid fiberglass with chrome steel guides, I find some of this a bit amusing. Of course, I remember when folks claimed that when the day came and they couldn't get up and cross the room to change channels on the TV, etc., etc., etc. Similar things were said about power windows in the car, air conditioners, and bicycle helmets. Times change. We change. For salt water anglers, there is much merit to these discussions. To those of us fishing for bass, well... When I was a kid, I left the house on fishing trips with one rod & reel, and a tackle box in which my shoes wouldn't fit. Today, I carry half a dozen rods and a veritable luggage rack of gear. On the other hand, the best development, in my mind, in guide technology has been RingLock, or whatever proprietary name a manufacurer wants to use. I've been using Alps XPBFLG fly guides on most of my recent builds for this very reason. Rust isn't an issue. The difference in weight is neglible (and, if I want a lighter guide, I'll use a micro), and hard aluminum oxide is more than adequate for my needs. However, something that helps prevent the rings from popping out is a big deal, IMO. Then, again, I don't need a Rolls Royce Phantom Coupe to get around town, but I am pretty certain that there are those that do. I am just so happy that I don't have to use a rod made by the folks that were making hammers for my Dad. Of course, that TruTemper rod could be used as a defensive weapon...
Slainte,
Hunter

From ghoulies and ghosties,
and long leggedy beasties,
and things that go bump in the night,
Good Lord deliver us!