You can buy a guide for 50 cents or $50.
Why should a rod builder put a $50 guide on a rod, rather than a 50 cent guide on a rod.

Folks talk about friction, or weight or etc. etc. etc.

But at the end of the day, with the material that todays guides are made from; is there really any advantage to putting the $$$$$$$$ guide on the blank rather than the $guide on the blank?

Research has shown, that no matter the guide, the vast majority of guides show no wear after hours and or years of use.
Sure you have things like recoil guides that can bend back if bent - but is that really worth anything?

When a rod is cast, the line is flying though the guides and if properly laid out, virtually never touches any of the guides to a significant degree.

If you have a fish that makes a big run and some friction happens on a particular guide and the guide gets warm, (so what?).

When you are reeling in a fish, any time that you want to take in line, you drop the rod tip to take pressure off of the guides, so there is next to no pressure on the guides.

So what if one guide is 10 times harder than another guide, if the first guide is hard enough to not show wear. That simply means that the harder guide is 10 times less likely to show wear that is yet to show any wear on the softer guide.


So, the question of the day?


Spend $20 on a set of guides for a rod, or spend $200 on a set of guides for a rod. What if any thing is gained by this action, except a deeper hole in the wallet of the person who pays for the rod and guides?

Just wondering.

Roger

I fish inshore and want protection against corrosion ... one word - TITANIUM.

Outside of that, I am looking for MAXIMUM performance, so weight and smoothness make a difference to me. Yes, I am paying an 80% premium for a 20% increase - but that's acceptable in my book.

Everyone is different. For a custom rod built for bling ... holographic, for a custom rod built for ego ... gold, for a custom rod built for performance ... titanium SiC and so forth.

Its all about the individual - isn't that what makes the world an interesting, if not unusual, place to live.

I fish inshore and offshore. On vertical jigging rods you had better have a good guide . Heat is a big concern when a big fish decides to sound. The heat of the guide ring will overheat the line and cause it to fail. Its in the materials ability to dissipate the heat generated that concerns me. I don't care how hot it can get before failing, I`m concerned for my line. I also go for a tuff frame with a ring that is secured well. Ever have a ring pop out from a hit on the boat during a battle with a good fish? I have and it was not fun. Frame design has a lot to do with the guides ability to shed the line if it gets wrapped for some reason during a cast or during a fight when the fish goes under the boat. Corrosion protection is another concern. Braided lines present problems that the newer guide designs have overcome . But if you want to build a rod with the old White ceramic with the black shock who`s going to stop you?

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

That, I suppose, depends on where you fish and what you catch.

I have read post by saltwater anglers where they talk about guides getting hot enough to melt fishing line! That friends, sounds like justification for the finest guides money can buy. On the other hand, living in the north east and fishing for Bass I could get by with any type of guides. That said, I'm using the Fuji Concept Alconite guides. I don't need that good a guide, but I see it as "value added."

My justification is simply this...If I'm going to invest time trying to get everything else on the rod right, it deserves the best hardware I can afford.

As I build only fly rods, guide wear is a non issue, so I use guides that are either the lightest combination I can achieve (for light weight rods) or those most esthetically appealing where that is important to the customer or myself. Cost will be what it is after making my selections, it is almost the last thing I look at. I also chose guides that are well constructed and prepped. One of my least favorite thing about rod building is guide foot prep!!! LOL Too this end, I cannot give enough kudos to Batson for the feet on their fly guides!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2012 10:42PM by Phil Erickson.

Ever have a ring pop out from a hit on the boat during a battle with a good fish? YES
Corrosion protection is another concern. IF YOU FISH SALTWATER, YOU KNOW ALL ABOUT THIS

Wahoo, tuna, bigger kingfish, etc all make blistering runs, hook a decent one and you better hope you have guides that disipate heat well. On that same note, so can a nice redfish on light or ultralight tackle, and I would venture to say it becomes even more apparent inshore as there is less frame material to dissipate that heat buildup you will get on a lesser quality guide. Overall, I'll buy the good stuff and not worry about it than lose a fish of a lifetime.

Those two reasons listed above are the EXACT reason I made the choice to switch over to American Tackle's Titanium Virtus Guides when they came out and havent looked back since. I am yet to have a guide fail on a rod since switching to the ring lock designs American Tackle offers. (exception intended mutilation with a hammer and that took some good blows before failing). This coupled with the nanolite ring, just puts the price to performance ratio right where we as consumers want it in my opinion. I like Jim Gamble have no problem paying a premium price for an exceptional product that I honestly just dont have to worry about.

Hmm..

If all you wanted is a rod that can fish, then why have custom rods? A WalMart rod will catch plenty of fish.

There is a time and place for the good stuff, and a place for the cheap stuff. For a custom rod, where everything is a bit better, it seems like the place to use high grade stainless or Titanium. If I were looking to sell a rod to a customer, expensive guides would be a perk to sell the whole rod.

With regards to the ring material, there is clearly a factor of diminishing returns. Alconite is less expensive than SiC, but in use, works as well, if not better.


One other thing. Since I build mostly fly rods, and only for me and my friends, I cannot justify anything but REC guides for the runners. The cost difference is less than $15 per rod, yet they are better in every way than normal stainless guides.

Good topic for discussion. At what point are things "good enough"

Drew

Hi Roger,
Would you trust a fifty cent guide on the fish of a lifetime, I wouldn't. You never know when one is going to turn up. If you shop around you can find some really good guides at a price that won't break the bank. I found a supplier that provides SiC rings in good stainless and titanium frames at less than half the price that I was paying. The guides aren't quite as good as what I was using but they're pretty close and the lady that I deal with can't do enough to help me out. I buy a fair few guides and I get a 10% discount and free shipping to boot. SiC is the best heat dissipator in ceramics and titanium frames eliminate the corrosion factor. If the rod is for a customer then they get what they want to pay for. If it's for me then I'm staying with titanium frames and SiC rings, cost is secondary.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

For myself I use something mid range. I fish inshore exclusively and have never used titanium framed guides and have never had a frame corrode and fail. I do wash my equipment down everytime I get them home. For a customer I will use the more expensive stuff and see nothing wrong with it. It is a custom rod and they certainly should be getting the best if that's what they are paying me to make. I don't expect anyone to pay as much attention to maintenance and care of the rods as I do therefore it is beneficial for both myself and the customer to use guides that are better able to hold up to less than ideal conditions (titanium) and heck if we're going that far put sme higher quality rings on there as well.

Rufus
Port Saint Lucie, FL

Rufus,

Out of curiosity, you use the statement:

It is a custom rod and they certainly should be getting the best if that's what they are paying me to make.....

When you make this statement, are you implying that the "best" is the most "expensive?"

Or, is the "most expensive" guide sold for that price, because of a marketing decision on the part of the company selling the guide?

Just curious.

Roger

I'm with Roger.
Don't see différence on my light rod betwen Fuji Sic and Alconite for exemple.

I choose guide for fonction, Nice to see some excellent light guide at a décent price (minima 4).

And if frame offer fill the need for a rod, i find Alconite the Best choice for the money.

For the Fly rod i go with TiCh single foot because i don't want guide that flash with the sun,

Just my opinion for the rod i build.

A little of both Roger, customers perception of what is the best regardless of why they think it is and also what is going to be best for them and the rod they are purchasing. Since I sell mostly rods being used in saltwateror brackish water situations I want to use components that have the best chance of being durable and meeting the customers expectations for the rod they are purchasing. I have to assume that they aren't going to be giving the rod a good wash down everytime they use it and, for me, this turns me towards the more durable titanium frames. The last thing I want is for a customer to pass on even to one person that the rod they purchased from me had inferior guides that didn't last. Regardless of the fact that high quality stainless frames may have been used, perception is everything. If, through improper care on the customers part, the guides corrode quickly he perception to the customer is that it was built with inferior components. That looks bad on me. Ar as the guide rings

Rufus
Port Saint Lucie, FL

Sorry this is harder from my phone. As for the guide rings I stick with Alconite unless they want something else. I do give the options and try to explain, the best I know how, the differences in ring materials. Some want to keep cost down and stay with alconite some go SiC, it does hae it's advantages even if the advantages don't equal up to the premium you pay for it. I certainly don't have a problem using SiC. I just don't want to spend that kind of money on myself. From your previous posts I gather that, to you, a fishing rod is a tool. Something to catch fish with. For others a fishing rod is a piece of art or something to brag about or maybe a prized possession maybe a combination of those things everyone views it differently. That's what keeps custom buikders in business. I recently built a rod for a man who can't even get out of bed but he'd always wanted a custom rod and had never gotten one. Now it hangs on his wall. Never used. That's what keeps custom builders in business.

Rufus
Port Saint Lucie, FL

I've built 4 spinning rods so far and I've only used Batson BVSLG single foot guides. These are the cheapest guides that Batson make, at around $0.70 - $2.20 for sizes 6 up to 25. Sure they're cheap, but they're not cheap and nasty. I think they are a good, solid, work horse type of guide and they're great value.

I have built a few of the Batson RX6 travel blanks. Using these guides and the Batson handle kits, I've been able to built myself some really functional yet economical rods that have cost no more than $60-70 each for the blank + components.

I'd have no problem at all tackling the fish of a lifetime using a rod with those guides.

Dale
Hobart, Tasmania
AUSTRALIA

Hi Roger,
Don't want to speak for Rufus but the best guides aren't necessarily the most expensive. The best guides are whatever you think gives you the best value for the dollars outlayed. That can be some wire wrapped around a screwdriver shaft to give you your own snake guides or the the most expensive rollers you can find. If they do the job and you don't have many problems and your satisfied with the performance then go with it. Personally I tend to over engineer everything I make so as to minimise the possibility of having a problem when it matters most and that often transfers into additional weight but I've never had a guide come loose or pull out, a grip or reelseat come loose so I'll continue to do what I've been doing for a lot of years. I'm more than happy with what I get with guides for the dollars spent. Like everyone I get the occasional broken ring or frame and you have to deal with that on an individual basis. Everyones different so go with what suits you best. For customers explain the benefits and drawbacks for the different types of guides, including cost, and let them make up their mind what they want, although cheapies can often come back and bight you in the butt so you've got to draw the the line for your minimum quality and it pays to get a wriiten contract on what your responsible for.
Good post as it will get a lot of people thinking about what they want from a rod for all the components not just guides.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

Well said Col. Wish my thoughts would come out that clearly.

Rufus
Port Saint Lucie, FL

Col may I suggest a minor change to your post:

Quote:

"The best guides are whatever you think gives you the best value for the dollars outlayed."

Some may not have the ability needed.

Delete the words "you think".

Those who have proven to build the best rods for a specific technique and angler skill level know that all guides are not the same.

If you have questions about trade offs contact an experienced successful builder who has done the homework.for the specific rods in question.

Internet forum generalities can lead the inexperienced in the wrong direction.

To me this is a lot like discussing what gun is needed for hunting. There are many who would (rightly) claim a Marlin 336 in 30-30 Win. has taken more than its fair share of deer and is the perfect choice. They are entirely right for their hunting conditions.

That same gun would be useless for mountain goat. Such game requires exceptional accuracy at long ranges and top notch optics. Ruggedness and light weight are important too. Something special and built for that purpose is required.

Then we have the extraordinary situations. Sometimes people fly many miles and spend thousands of dollars to hunt game entirely capable of killing the hunter. In such a case it makes little sense to skimp on your gun.

It pays to have the right tool for the job. Spending a little extra and therefore having more confidence in your “tool” can offer an important edge. I doubt many here are interested in building the most economically priced rod possible.

There will always be those that claim things like a 7X57 is a fine deer cartridge and has taken plenty of elephant. Those interested in the best chance of success know the value of a tool crafted for the particular conditions they will face. They will have several to choose from:)

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Im in agreament with the last few posts, the "best" guide for me isnt going to be the same guide even for my father or brother. You need to look into what the person is going to do with the rod, what kind of fish are likely to be there, and how much that person knows about fishing (maintanence of their equipment included). Because I practically live on the beach, I try to aviod any powder coated steel guides because Im afraid the salt air will some how penitrate finishes. My preference is Titanium, or specifically American Tackle titanium series, yes the guides are a fair amount more expensive than steel or stainless steel giudes but there is little to no chance of the guide corroding. And yes stainless steel can rust, there is still iron in it, just far less than normal steel.

I also compare brands and suppliers to find the best shipping times, rates, and prices.

Also price does not always equal quality.

Derek

Last summer I made the decision to buy my first riding lawnmower. I noticed right away that Home Depot's price on the EXACT same John Deere or Husqvarna from a dealer was hundreds of dollars less. I found out that Home Depot moves enough units to have the big manufacturers make an "exclusive" model. The mowers are IDENTICAL, but one obviously doesn't recieve the level of attention and detail as the other one. A closer look revealed that the guage of steel was slightly lighter, the paint job looked a little "thinner", there were some things that were plastic on the Home Depot model that were metal on the dealer model, suspensions on one were bushings while the other had bearings etc. Add it all up and you have two IDENTICAL machines that are actually very different. When I was a kid, my grandfather used to tell me that "money can't buy happiness", but he'd always follow up with "but it'll sure let you pick your misery". I don't think I fully understood that pearl of wisdom until long after he was gone.