I am just curious as to whether other builders are using any more micros on a build than the number of conventional guides on the same rod.

From all of the articles and comments over the last few months, there doesn't appear to be any big deal about the line rubbing on the blank, or going below the blank when fishing or landing a fish.

So, if that is the case, why use any more micro guides than conventional guides.

For example, if you wrap a rod with 10 conventional guides, why not wrap the same blank with 10 micros.

Then you get good weight savings, since your guide numbers stay the same, and the weight per guide goes down.


If, on the other hand, you want to keep the line off of the blank and increase the number of guides from 10 to 20 to keep the line off of the blank, do you save any weight?

Just wondering?

Take care
Roger

Roger,

I usually use one or two more micros than I would larger guides on the same build. The only real reason is that I like the aesthetics of the line path better with an extra guide or two. It just keeps the line a little close to the blank and looks better to me.

Joe

Good questions Roger. The bass guys say the only time the line touches is under max load and at that time no line is going out against the buttoned down drag. So it doesn't matter to them. For me it is rather different. Max load means the drag is screaming and line is dissapearing off the spool upwards of 30 to 60 miles per hour. No way I want my line touching my blank under those conditions.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

I find I typically use (1) more guide when using micros.
I don't like the line dipping below the blank, but touching under full load is OK to me.
I build bass rods so there's no "screaming" of the drag.
Just did a 7' cranking rod, used (8) 4's, (1) 5 SF and (1) 6 DF

Russ - do a test. Put a section of graphite blank in your lathe and spin it at "30 to 60 miles per hour". Hold a piece of mono against it and see what happens.

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2011 06:23PM by Chuck Mills.

Spiral the wrap and the tip section needs no more guides than you put on any of your spinning rods. I think Mr Forhan measured actual guide tension on a rod that had 5 lbs of load on it, no guide carried anywhere near the full weight and must guide were under 1/10 a lb of load to near zero load. Add a little water from a few casts and retrieves, etc. and I can live with the problem of a fast fish.

Spencer,
I agree that a spiral wrap will allow a person to do that, with no issue.

The question that I have is for folks who build a conventional casting rods with micros.

Again, if rubbing the blank, or going under the blank with the line makes no difference, I don't see that one should need any more micros than with conventional guides.

There have been numerous posts recently which indicate that line rubbing and line under the blank make no difference. So, I just ask the question.


Roger

Hm,

I read those posts as well, Roger in fact I may have posted in a few my self of those read. I did notice my self that others were in a direction of tolerances towards this practice of line contact to the blank using micro guides. To me there was no explanation of the build they were trying to use as an example of there explanation to the post being answered, they just answered the post more directly. So in a nut shell here, and for the most part I do not think everyone will agree with all the practices and concepts that are discussed in the direction of whats right or wrong. Now that I have said my mind to that part of the discussion, I can now talk about what I have been doing with these little monsters on the blanks I have been building.

Now you mentioned conventional casting rods with micros, this has been my ongoing build for about 8 months. I have built 13 of them all using St Croix Avid AC80MF SC II, III Action fast and Lamiglas similar action and power. Now with that a little bit about how I build thus far. First is the customer or "User" I build the rod as if it were an extension to ones hands as a tool. With this in mind I build the rod ergonomically correct to the user's defined purpose intended. In this case The user is catching Springer salmon on the Columbia River in the max range of 35lbs class. It is rare to see anything larger if so "KUDOS" to the lucky fisherman, average range class 20 plus lbs. Now that we understand what were after and what they like to catch them with, can I make it better and enhance there tools performance?

The answerer is yes using the micros improved many aspects of there fishing experience which I beleive I covered in some of those posts you read so I wont go into detail again here. To answer the question of the amount of guides used one more or one less all depends on the static test and load test. Weight is not the real issue because of the fact the guides are so darned small in the first place. But line contact to the rod is I feel very important for the very reason some of these other fellas have stated above. I try to practice having the line mimic the blank as much as possible which can be difficult at times with 2 piece rods over one piece rods.

Now for what I feel is the real question and here's what no one has asked. How much load are you putting on the rod to test and place your guides so when the user goes out and lands a fish the line isn't touching the blank ? This question alone is the reason why we are custom builders and we build the rod for the user not for the general public ! I beleive and its been proven to my mind that the only answer to this question is the intended use of the rod and the user using the rod. The user knows just how much load hes going to allow on the rod hes going to use landing that fish before he allows it to take line again that's an experienced fisherman and that's why they seek us out to build that rod that will perform to those standards. I hope this will open up some avenues of thinking on everyones part that not every concept and idea is carved in stone, and we are all meant to fail at some point to learn from it and overcome the obstacle's its how we learn. Of course reading always helps ! Have a great weekend folks !

Rick H.

rwheil@msn.com

Website
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I'm not worried about mono touching the blank, just braid. However I would still do what it takes to keep the line off the blank. Call it personal preference.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Roger;
I build spiral wrapped rods so line to blank contact is not a concern; still
choosing to use an extra guide or two, which has nothing to do with line
touching the blank. It is to better control or tame the line to improve
casting distance, and harnessing the blanks energy in casting, hook setting, and controlling the fish.

Conventional rods will also benefit from and extra guide or two for the same reasons.

Weight wise;
Six 2.5mm guides weigh the same as one 6 mm guide.

So if you were to take six 6mm guides off of a rod, and replace them with
eighteen (exaggerated number to make point) 2.5 mm guides. You would still
be at fraction of the original weight.

So adding 1 or 2 extra guides does not even bring you close to what using 6’s weigh


Fact is; based on weights taken couple years back. The weight savings even
after adding a couple of extra micro guides is in the 76 to 83% range
depending on manufacturer.
With 3s, 3.5s, or even 4mm guides the percentages will be less but still over the 60 % to 70% mark.

If you would take the time to buy a few Micro guides and build a couple of
rods for yourself you would gain enough in-site to stop making unfounded
assumptions.

But until then you might consider reading these threads.
They will provide you with a great amount of knowledge from those who have
built many Micro rods.
You will even find a trick for threading those little buggers that makes it easy for those with poor eye sight to achieve.
Vol 1:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Vol 2:
[rodbuilding.org]

Vol 3:
[rodbuilding.org]

Vol 4:
[rodbuilding.org]

Vol 5:
[rodbuilding.org]

Roger,
for builds on Bass rods, conventional not spiral, the often lower frame height of a micro dictates that to get a similar path to say a 6 or 7 mm guide with a 3 mm guide i need one or two more guides. The bottom of the ring is closer to the blank with many micros than their larger stablemates.

The entire discussion above has left out what I feel is an important factor in a micro build or any other build for that matter. It was long ago definitively determined that more guides will track line better "along the blank", actually transferring more power from the blank into the line. Fuji outlined this advantage in the original New Guide Concept (which called for more, smaller guides) and has loads of hard data to confirm it. So in addition to all the advantages (and the list is long), adding guides, even micros, will make a rod more powerful or at least let you use what you've got more effectively. Better sensitivity, recovery, speed, balance, AND power. Hard to compete with that.

I'm confused as to how line touching the blank under load is ok? Thought that was a no-no?

Jim Ising,

I agree with that very much in definition, out of the builds I constructed and field tested my self . The over all transfer of action sensitivity (lack of a better term) while fighting the fish was enhanced. My customers response's were; its a completely different rod and they can feel the fish in the water as they are playing it out, that and precision casting in tight hog lines were also a huge improvement as well. I have no issues with using more guides to get the performance desired. I personal don't think there is really no debate over wright or wrong on how many are used in application. But common sense plays the largest role in getting the correct guide spacing and placement for the intended build. Personally I think its the best thing to hit the rod building industry! I say keep them coming and in more colors....not many to chose from really! you know like #4s with a halo ring or red, blues and greens of such. We can only wish !

Rick H.

rwheil@msn.com

Website
[www.facebook.com]
[home.comcast.net]

Rick,

All you need to do is ask your supplier and you can receive!! I have black and blue down to 2mm... they were a special order but I was able to get them.

Thomas,

Whoa! really !!! All I have been able to find is the #4s from [www.schneidersrods.com] in gold and black rings those come from Batson special order I do believe at least from that particular maker. What vendor are you getting yours from if I may ask ? I will give them a jingle ! and thank you for sharing that tidbit of info! Will make certain customers in my loop happy to know LOL! That just made my day infact knowing there out there now! Thanks again !

Rick H.

rwheil@msn.com

Website
[www.facebook.com]
[home.comcast.net]

When I was at Bass Pro last night I saw Micro rods with up to 15 guides with the tip.

Richard,
Sure, you can build a rod with 20 guides on a 6 foot rod if you want. But why?
If you can have an excellent performing rod with 6 guides on a rod, why would you want to put 10 or 15 guides on a rod?

Roger

One of the rod makers that came out with the micros first, said something of the sort that having 12 guides on the rod made it a better rod. I don't remember which rod it was or the exact number of guides that were on the rod. Next someone else came out with their own rod and it had like 2 more guides on it, saying if 12 was good, 14 had to be better. I saw the Wright-McGill rods at a Gander Mountain one time and looked at a 6-6 spinning rod. it had like 12 guides plus the tip. Personally I think they are going a bit overboard on the number of guides. For my own rods, I have been using at the most 2 more guides than I would have in the past, just to get a good line path with the blank.

Rick,
I have some of Schneiders guides smaller than their listed 4mm. All that you need to do is call them and they will special order them for you. I know that Karen at at Bingham and Scott at Fish Sticks all can get them for you. I think you will be VERY happy with them. I know that all of my customers have been quite excited with them.


Roger, the best thing that I can say is buid one each way. I am guessing that you haven't build with micros yet on account of the inquiry, you should be please with the results once you do.

I find that I have on average used 1-2 more than standard setups. (for my personal liking)


Tom