Hello,

I am thinking about building my first musky rod and have some questions about guide selection. I am thinking of using either a St Croix or Thorne Bros Predator blank. My question is what kind of guide material should I use. Are titanium framed guides that much lighter than say a chrome or SS guide? Is SIC or nanolite that much better than say an alconite? My goal is to build a light rod with very tough, durable guides.

Thanks for the help.
Matt Geissler

For musky rods I prefer to use either: zirconium, or SIC.

That said I have musky rods with Alconite, Nanolite, and Aluminum Oxide and they all perform perfectly well. I do believe the slicker more polished rings like zirconium and SIC are a little quieter when in use.

Wear is never an issue with any of todays ceramic materials.

On the titanium I suggest NOT using titanium frames. Why? they wil not sustain being bent back and forth, the frames will fail a lot sooner than stainless. This is important with single foot flys.

Edit: added: if I were looking for the most durable guides, the American Tackle Ring Lock with the Zirconium rings would be my choice.

DR



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2011 11:11AM by Duane Richards.

Matt,
I just finished 3 of the predator rods.
Most of the folks use a silicon tip but then either just use hardalloy guide, or possibly a silicon guide if they want.
The guide durablity is really not the issue, except for the tip.
When you consider the weight of the heavier action musky rods, the slight weight differences of various guides are pretty much buried in the fluff and really don't justify putting more expensive guides on such a rod.
If you want, by all means go ahead. Just be sure that what ever guide that you use, you have a frame that is heavy enough to take the abuse of some of the musky fishermen.

Again, for simple guide "toughness" I would use ONLY double foot guides. I would not put a single foot guide on a musky rod. Again, not an issue with the line and issue. More the issue with the general use and h andling of many musky rods in and about the boat and during transport.

I think that in a lot of cases for the users of these rods, it is not the issue with the guides having problems from line wear, but more an issue of being damaged, while in the boat or during transport.

By the way, the predator are wonderful blank.

Take care
Roger



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2011 12:45PM by roger wilson.

Thanks so much for the info. Exactly what I was looking for!

Roger,
Have you ever used the syncork from Thorne Bros? I was hoping to shape it by hand....is this a futile task and if it can be done, what tools should I use?

Matt,
Much to my distress, I was asked to use the Syncork for these rods.
This was the first time that I had worked with this material before.

A couple of points.
Due to the adhesive properties of this material, do NOT attempt to glue it together on a mandrel and then transfer it to a blank.
Rather, bore each ring separately, then, take all of the rings, for the butt grip, the reel seat, the reel seat arbor and fore grip - use slow dry epoxy and clamp them all together at the same time.

I advice with respect to shaping it by hand is that it would be possible if you had lots and lots and lots of time.
If you are in the upper Midwest close to Thorne Brothers, go ahead and use their facilities to glue up the rings and then use their full length rod lathe to turn the rod and shape the material.

I did discover one thing fairly quickly when working with syncork is that it likes to be worked at a slower speed than cork.

When you work with cork, you can spin the cork faster and faster, using lighter touches and or finer tools and sandpaper and have excellent results.

But with Syncork, since it is a plastic based material, speed can work against you. i.e. if you spin the rod too fast, your tools and or sandpaper can actually cause the syncork to melt. So, in order to continue to get nice cutting with the tools that you use, it is actually to your advantage to use coarser grit paper and to use it more slowly than if you were using cork.


It is suggested that for cutting the glue line of the syncork as well as all of the major initial shaping, use a Stanley Surform planer. This coarse rasp does an excellent job of doing all of the initial shaping of the material and is what Thorne Brothers use on all of their handles initially. Then, start with 60 or 80 grit paper to get the material close to the final size. Since most of the musky fishermen want a grip that does not slip in any weather, most of the final finishing is done with either 100 grit or 150 grit paper. Really no need to go finer.

At Thorne brothers, even after the lathe work is complete, they generally do a final hand sanding with the paper being used up and down on the grip to give the final feel and grip that works best for the fishermen.

When working with the syncork, I stopped after the lathe work, then tried a follow up sanding up and down on the syncork grips with sandpaper and agree with Thorne Brothers that the final sanding - up and down the handles rather than around the handles does leave the handles and grips in a better and more fisher person friendly handle.

If you want to go to a finer and smoother handle, which ends up being a bit slicker - especially in wet weather can be obtained by going to finer grit paper as would be expected.
I did do one handle down to 400 grit for a test. But after checking it, I put a texture back on the handle with 150 grit. I felt that the coarser did leave the handle in a better position for all weather fishing.

With respect to lathe speed.
Most of Thorne Brothers lathes use a 1750 rpm chuck speed. My main lathe has a 3600 rpm chuck speed. After trying my lathe, I went to my back up variable speed motor so that I could slow the speed down to 1500 - 2000 rpm and obtained a better overall effect.
If you spin the handle too fast, you can end up with a bit of melt on the surface and end up with a shiny spot on the handle. With the slower lathe speed, it was easy to sand out the shiny spot, as the handle was shaped to the final contour.

So = to shape the syncork
a. Stanley Surform plane - (coarse rasp)
bl. 60 grit sand paper.
c. 80 grit sandpaper
d. 100 grit sandpaper
e. 120 grit sandpaper
f. 150 grit sandpaper.

Take care
Roger



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2011 03:25PM by roger wilson.

I wil second what the others have said with one notable exception, the recommendation to only use double foot guides.

I have built dozens of musky rods for clients, and am a hardcore musky angler myself, so I am speaking from considerable experience.

By all means, use single foot guides, especially at the end of the rod! My typical set up is a #20 SIC butt guide, double foot; then a #10 DF; then all single foot from there. Use a locking wrap, and a coat or two of PermaGloss, before an epoxy finish. Or, rather, several coats of PG alone.

I have used guides down to #6 single foot , and have yet to have a failure on any musky rod I have built.

I myself would not use the syncork. Too much trouble. A regular cork or exotic cork is easier to work with and you can make a handle off blank. Seal it well then glue onto the blank.

Or make a foam handle.

Bill - willierods.com

Bill,
Before using it the first time - I will admit that I would have agreed with you.

But after having finished the rods and completed some test casting, I will admit that the syncork is about the right product for the right rod.

Syncork has a different look than any other handle. Unless you compare it to a nylon slick butt as is used on some of the bigger blue water rods, syncork builds up into a handle that is tougher than about any other handle product.

For the clients who want the durability of this material - I have to agree - it really can't be matched by another handle type with the same weight.

Yes, you can make a handle of rubberized cork, but then the handle will be much heavier than the syncork.

So, it is up to the client to state his / her needs and requirements. If a client wants syncork or some other unusual material for a handle, we have no choice but to use that material when we build the rod, if we want to keep the client's business.

Since I had not used the material before for a completed rod - used it previously in test samples - I will say that I learned a great deal in the material handling as well as the materials tooling and other special requirements.

Now that I have used it for these last builds, I will say that I would not hesitate to use it again. As with many things, there is a learning curve. But once you have worked up the learning curve, things are just fine.

Enjoy and be safe.

Roger

I just like doing my handles -off - the blank

Bill - willierods.com