Am I missing something - I just looked at the Loomis site and the only rods sporting split grips were the NRX's. Not even the bass series?

Are any of you bass guys still building any full grip rods?

Thanks,

Marc

I get a request occasionally, but less than 5% of my bass rods are full grip. The funny thing about the NRX rods is even they have a bunch of cork for a split grip. I'm not sure I've seen less of a "split".

TC

Thomas Cayman - AKA Robert Russell

ROBERT M. RUSSELL
KYLE TX 78640



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2011 08:45PM by Moderator.

I am new to rod building, but as a rod user with 50+ years of experience, I prefer a full grip. Practically, in the boat that knob on the end of the grip wants to find shirt-tails or other loose clothing to snag. It seems to me that custom builders are always looking for some new bit of fluff to distance themselves from the factory rods. But on the usefulness scale, I see split grips as one down from mini-guides and one up from spiral guides

I first saw the split grip in about 2001 in a Bass Club magazine. A southern Pro had a Flippin Stick with all the cork removed. This was done to lighten the rod as much as possible for a long day of fishing. As I recall he left a knob of cork on the butt end so that his hand didn't slide off, but it might have been just been a wad of tape.

Now this rod was purpose driven and I can except that. He4 didn't care if it was ugly, he was trying to save weight.
Aesthetically there have been some nice commercial split-grip rods. The first Carrot Stik spinning rod for example. However, most 6.5 and 7 foot casting rods, with split grips look awkward. The circumcised grips remind me of the fake louvers on 60's era cars. They are for style and serve no purpose! In fact they may decrease performance simply by being there.

Perhaps I'm wrong!
Split-grips might be more than a rod building Hula Hoop.
But, I predict that in 10 years they will be as dated as tail-fins and you won't be able to give a split grip rod away.

As far as G.Loomis goes, they are offering a premium product, their customers are by nature, conservative.
More of the solid silver BMW than yellow plastic Corvette type of guy...
Therefore the styling of the rods is more classic than contemporary.
Garry2rs
Fishing is my favorite form of loafing

Garry2R's

Gary,

You might be right. I bass fish in Texas a lot and I've just started rod builing again to replace my commercial rods with higher quality. Since all of my store bought rods are full grips, I've built 2 super light weight split grip, split reel seat casting rods with micros and I'm not sure I like the split grips too well. My issue is 2 handed casts - I tend to just grap the rod and throw, but the butt grip is small so I now have to be careful about where my left hand goes. With a full grip I just grab and fire.

I have never done anything original and this year with all the talk and pictures of custom rods with split grips I decided to join the crowd. I just had to have one. I went to the bay to try my new rod. My two fishing friends and I got into a school of specks feeding under a school of birds. The bite was fast and I had caught a couple of fish and didn't clean the slime off of my hands. On the next fish my hand slipped and went in between the split grip. The rod was turning every which way for a couple of seconds and I swore I would never again fish a rod with a split grip. But I may change my mind...they surely look pretty. I am 71 years old and still pump iron three days a week so it is not a matter of building a very light rod, it is more for looks.

When used correctly, the split grip has advantages. Problem is most folks see them as an aesthetic and don't know the reasons behind their evolution. The reasons are more than weight reduction.

One of the biggest was to aid two hand casting.

A split grip done right won't hang up anymore than any other grip. It's also a whole lot more functional for tip down retrieve techniques on rods for swimbaits, cranks, etc.

-----------------
AD

Marc,
Yes many many builders still only build full grips.

The bottom line reason for rods to have split grips is very simple.
SAVE MONEY

There is little other advantage to the use of a split grip.
Folks talk about saving weight, but that is largely a myth. If cork is removed from the back grip, to keep the rod balanced, a bit of weight is generally added to the butt cap section of the grip to keept the rod balanced.

It gives the rod a different look, but it doesn't make the rod fish any better and it has quite a few down sides in the form of the inability to fit nicely into a rod holder, it doesn't allow a person to move his hand back to the aft section of the rod comfortably, and the end of the rod tends to catch in the fishermans clothing.

The good thing that a split grip does do for the client and builder and supplier of the rod is to save money and quite a bit of money at that. A typical 9 inch back grip on a long rod will use 18 1/2 inch thick cork rings. The typical cost of decent 1/2 inch cork ranges from $1 - $3 per ring. So if you take the mid range of price, you find that for the 18 rings, decent cork will run $36.

In contrast, the back grip of a split grip rod is typically 4 inches long or 8 rings. The difference of 18 rings to 8 rings is 10 rings. So, 10 rings at $2 each equals $20.
Multiply $20 cost saving on each rod and the $$ add up quite quickly.

Now add to the fact that many of the split grip designs are also going with no foregrip. So, a typical fore grip of 3 inches equal another 6 rings.

So, now we are going from a total of 18 plug 6 equal 24 rings at a cost of $48 compared to the total of 8 rings at a cost of $16.
Now the overall cost savings of a full 9 inch grip using $2 cork compared to using a 4 inch split grip with no fore girp is $32. Multiply the $32 over the course of several hundred rods, and the ability of marketing to get another $10 for the split grip rod, over the conventional "old style" rod, you are looking at $42 savings per rod multiplied by the production run.

IS loomis incorrect in not offering split grip rods - it is up to the reader to decide.

Roger

I build many bass / light inshore spinning rods with a full cork grip... the reel is set back on the handle to balance the rod vertically, kind of like a Michigan or drop shot style handle. The rear grip is only about 5 inches so there is not much room to take anything away. I suppose I could take out a token inch, but I doubt the weight reduction would be noticeable. I do however use small diameter Tennessee style cork for the butt which lowers weight. I can still build a bass rod under 3 ounces

The split grip rods are in style right now. The trend will probably continue because it does lower the weight of the rod.

But lower weight at the tip offers a bigger benefit. And a full-grip could offer more comfort (open to debate).

As a small rod builder, I make full length cork grips mainly because it's different. Gimmicks help boost sales. If everybody is doing one thing, I'm doing something DIFFRENT. Uniqueness adds value... you can't get it anywhere else (almost anywhere). That's the bottom line.

If and when most rod companies are listing finished rod weights, I may have to change my tune... but I don't think that will happen. Even modulus specifications are going away. Companies don't want consumers to be able to compare products... they want to build value with hype.

I have built and fished split grips myself - and in no way do I see them improving a rod. The only difference I can feel is the rods get a little tip heavier - which I don't consider a benefit.

Most guys have been so over-marketed to they are brainwashed - and just have to have what the pro's have. The pro's push what their sponsors tell them to, and for rod companies there is a cost savings using less cork.

I had a bass guy this year that did not want a small bass decal on the rod ahead of the reel seat because he was afraid the extra weight would lessen the rods balance, however he wanted a split grip no doubt. What effects a rods balance more - removing a 4" long section of cork behind the grip, or adding a 3/4" bass decal and a 1" long coat of finish ahead of it? I just shake my head. I guess Loomis is one of the few bucking the trend - good for them - I hope.

$0.02 Deposited - Marc

Marc

As fare as i can see is the lighter the butt of a say 7 ft rod is the more tip heavy the rod is. Split grips are nice looking, so if more weight is needed to balance it - use a heaver material . You have a good looking split grip- yet with more weight to balance the rod.

You can always add a butt balance end to it

Bill - willierods.com

I absolutely love split grips and even have them on rods with short (<6”) grips. I’ve found that ergonomically, the tapered grip allows the hand to conform more naturally during a cast. If you roll your fingers so as to simulate holding a rod grip and extend your forefinger, you’ll see that the space toward the heel of your hand becomes smaller.
They do save considerable weight and if tip heaviness becomes an issue, a counterbalancing weight can be added to the extreme end of the butt. The weight need not be as heavy as the removed cork since it is placed further back on the rod. It all comes down to personal preference. To each his own……



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2010 03:52PM by jim spooner.

The rod companies were chasing innovations originally made by Rich Forhan, and most aren't all that new. As far as I know, he is the originator of the split grip on a bass rod (I believe they were used on surf rods long before), modified reel seats, many technique specific rods, and other innovations that permeate the bass market. I can assure you, he was driven by performance and not by marketing hype. Just because the pros push a product does not mean that is what is in their hand when the money is on the line, just ask Bill Stevens, Alex D., and I'm sure a host of other builders you will see here from time to time.

A well planned and executed split grip should have grips that fill the hands, and should fish no differently than a full grip rod. Look at your used rods and see where the cork is discolored. I'm sure you will find 2", 3", or more where you have no oil residue from your hands (If not, then you may not be a good candidate for a split grip build.). This is the area that can be removed, as it does little more than add unnecessary weight to the handle. If balance is a serious concern to you, you can add less weight than you removed to the butt of the rod and achieve the same balance as you had with a full grip. In the end, you can still have a rod with the same balance point and an overall lighter build.

A rod blank is as efficient as possible as a bare blank. Anything we do adds weight and decreases the performance of the blank. Of course, the repercussions of adding weight to the butt are far less severe than adding weight to the tip, but there is still a price to pay. It is up to the builder and the client to determine which tradeoffs are more important. For instance, a split grip handle on a short rod blank may not make much sense if the split is only a ring or two. Perhaps your client casts singlehandedly all of the time, and the butt grip on a split grip doesn't need to be more than a ring or two. As noted above, if the rod will see time in a rod holder for trolling, the split grip can make it tough to remove the rod from the holder. On another note, a heavily modified seat on a small diameter blank may prove quite uncomfortable, but that same modification on a larger diameter blank may work well.

The bottom line is to understand what different designs offer and the tradeoffs of using them. As a hobby builder, I design my rods to suit the task, aesthetics are usually an afterthought with perhaps a small decorative wrap, decal or other decoration added on when the rod is ready for finish. By the way the area between the grips on a split grip is a great place to add decals decorative wraps, hook keepers, etc., and 'enhance balance' with the ornamentation making up for some of the weight removed. Personally, I think split grips, properly sized guides, modified reel seats and other innovations are here to stay for a long time. You may see full grip rods marketed at some point in the future as 'better balanced rods', but it will be little more than hype as you can achieve the same balance with a split grip and still have a lighter build.

Joe

Jim and I were typing up similar thoughts at the same time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2010 04:02PM by Joe Vanfossen.

If you don't see why a split grip is effective, you most likely haven't fished with it in the correct manner to justify having it. If they didn't work, they wouldn't sell. Bottom line on that one. mind you this is with a properly designed split - not a eye catcher made by a lot of companies these days.

You are missing out if you think split grips are significantly cheaper. They are actually the same cost if not more expensive to produce. If you use winding checks, you now have the added cost of two additionals, you have two set ups to produce two different shaped pieces, two molds, you have to ream two seperate pieces of grip, you have to measure differently, etc. Go put on a 10" full grip, now go put on a 10" split grip and tell me which you did quicker... Go have rods made for you by a factory. I bet the full grip rods will be cheaper than split grips, especially with EVA,

There are still plenty of companies producing full grips. Funny thing is one production company said their split grips on the same rod outsells the full grip 3 to 1 and they don't push one over the other. This particular company would even prefer to sell full grips because of them being easier to manufacture.

Another thing people miss out with the split vs full - most splits don't need arbors. With a full grip on a blank with a significant taper, you end up having to arbor the front end. With a split, you rarely have to do this. That's a plus in my book.

I think there are times when a full is good - like in a rod holder - but if we're using rodholders, we aren't bass fishing anymore. And the split grip was designed for bass fishermen.

*nice post Joe - I was writing same time as you!

-----------------
AD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2010 04:12PM by Alex Dziengielewski.

I personally like split grips on most anything bass related. For 2-handed casting rods like my crank bait sticks, i simply use a longer butt section of grip. If anything, it saves money with good cork being 2$ for a 1/2". I also like that the split portion of the blank conforms to the shape of your fore-arm and locks the rod into place for 1 arm hooksets and stabiblity when fighting a fish. Just like spirals and micros - everything has its place.

Are they about style? sure, but if custom building wasn't at least *a little* bit about style - we would all be producing bare graphite rods with black hardware, black wraps, no decals and 5-minute epoxy for finish and what not. The most painstaking and time-consuming aspects of building a rod are making it look good. If making it look good is not important, then why waste the time?

Regards,
-Justin

Although some people's bottom line reason might be because they think they save money building slit grips. They should not presume to speak for me or others that have sound performance minded reasons for how they do things.

You can put me on board with Jim, Joe, Alex, and Justin

I'm with Steve. Iif you value a "balanced" rod, the last place you want weight is closer to the seat. You're much better off moving the 1/2 oz from the middle of your grip to the butt of a split seat. It will take significantly less weight added to the butt to get the same "balance" as a full grip. I suspect this is an age issue, older and more conservative equals less likely to accept anything new and or different.

Thomas Cayman - AKA Robert Russell

ROBERT M. RUSSELL
KYLE TX 78640



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2011 08:45PM by Moderator.

After the first few posts, I considered mentioning what was being missed - but decided to wait and see if others would shine a light on the subject. Glad I waited. First Alex posted, then Joe, then Alex again - not much to add when it's that well said. I agree with Steve.

Personally,

I see it in a way that the less they grab onto the concept of split grips in large manufacturer's .....the more demand for us custom builders to make one ! I have read allot of post on this type of build and the science behind it is satisfactory to me ! I hope they make less of them . Leave it to the custom builder I say ! I am sure the concept of this build came from a custom builder some were as stated above! If they flood the stores with this build like they have with many other builds ...the only thing left will get to do is just make them look pretty ....and from what I seen.... they do that very well already! Just my 2 cents on the subject.

Its sad to think that ( I ) may become prehistoric before my time . I suppose I am thinking along the lines of competition here, the market is growing fast and steady with new builds and ideas every year! In my discussion's with some of the fishing folks in my town; They say why spend the money for a custom rod...when I can buy one inexpensive, looks good.... and if it craps out ? I just take it back for a new one off the shelf . This is just one of the conversations that was taking place while talking about this build in particular. Please any opinions or something worth say about this would be nice to here from you guys !

Be Well All !

Rick H.

rwheil@msn.com

Website
[www.facebook.com]
[home.comcast.net]

Rick,

It's QUALITY and ATTENTION to details that separates us from the mass produced. No way will any mass rod compete with the quality and special designs we can make one at a time to suit each and every customer perfectly. We can just flat build a better stick.

DR

amen to that!

LEGENDARY CREATIONS CUSTOM RODS
Maplewood, MN